PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

I am not saying there are related party transactions or off the book payments. It's a split salary under two separate contracts. I don't see any problem with that as long as the amounts involved can be justified under both contracts. I would imagine that the club got legal and tax clearance before signing anyway.

It's apparent from the emails that the club was involved in negotiating the contracts and, it seems, in some payments. We can't pretend the implications of the emails don't exist. They have to be covered by the defence. But none of that bothers me particularly.

When I was getting a split salary, I wasn't negotiating separately with the three group companies. I negotiated with one, the lead company, and they handled the rest with the other companies. It's all normal to me.

All imho, of course. Feel free to disagree.

That’s exactly the potential issue though as your scenario is all within the same group. If Al Jazira was part of the CFG and his contract was negotiated by them on behalf of City and Al Jazira then that would have been fine (as long as the City side of it wasn’t deliberately undervalued).
 
That’s exactly the potential issue though as your scenario is all within the same group. If Al Jazira was part of the CFG and his contract was negotiated by them on behalf of City and Al Jazira then that would have been fine (as long as the City side of it wasn’t deliberately undervalued).
Possibly, but in the grand scheme of things that is such a small amount of money it's clutching at straws.
 
Possibly, but in the grand scheme of things that is such a small amount of money it's clutching at straws.

Yeah I agree. Like I said even if they do pull us up on it and we don’t have a valid defence it really should be just a slap on the wrists.

I do think it’s only small fry what the PL potentially actually has on us though.
 
Yeah I agree. Like I said even if they do pull us up on it and we don’t have a valid defence it really should be just a slap on the wrists.

I do think it’s only small fry what the PL potentially actually has on us though.
If what they 'have on us' is true then nearly everyone in the club hierarchy and several major accounting firms are looking at prison time. For that reason and the shoddy assembly of the charges I think it's bollocks.
 
If we were negotiating the contract on behalf of Al Jazira with him and there were transactions or agreements between the two it’d be pretty hard to argue they shouldn’t have been considered a related party.

I think the main argument the PL will have and we’ll have to justify is the negotiation around the 2011 one as the emails did indicate his salary at Al Jazira had a bearing on the salary he got with us (as in we effectively treated it as one total package).
The main reason why Al Jazira and City could be classed as related parties would be that both are owned by Sheikh Mansour. But that's not enough in itself to automatically make them so. Sheikh Mansour seems to play little or no part in the overall management of City, therefore it's unlikely that the two clubs would be classed as related, and we never have been according to the accounts.
 
Have you ever seen the actual DS emails on Fordham? It's the only one of the allegations I am unsure about, but that is only because I don't much about how it worked. I would be very surprised if it wasn't completely above board, though. As I say, I imagine these guys get legal and tax clearance on everything.

On UEFA, they looked at Fordham in 2014 and it was part of the settlement. I suspect they didn't re-open it again in 2019 because of the settlement in the same way they didn't open up related parties and fair value again.
All I can speculate re Fordham is if Simon Pierce is the person signing off the negotiation on any Mancini brokering?

Simply because his testimony at CAS was he does not get involved in such and, as such, the panel had no reason to question his integrity?

I think City knew Mancini was going on gardening leave and simply put down a marker before he had even left Inter, to box him off.
 
The main reason why Al Jazira and City could be classed as related parties would be that both are owned by Sheikh Mansour. But that's not enough in itself to automatically make them so. Sheikh Mansour seems to play little or no part in the overall management of City, therefore it's unlikely that the two clubs would be classed as related, and we never have been according to the accounts.

I’d argue it is if one entity is negotiating contracts on the others behalf though and there were transactions between the two on that contract.
 
I’d argue it is if one entity is negotiating contracts on the others behalf though and there were transactions between the two on that contract.
That's not how a related party is defined though, for one thing. And I'd argue that, as Mancini's employer, City had a right to negotiate, or be heavily involved in the negotiation of, any side contract.
 
The independent regulator is independent their powers are set by an act of parliament its downs time a that the government of the day will interfere
CAS is an arbitration service
The PL independent commission is appointed by the PL and will consist of at least 2 KCs who will consider the evidence from both parties much like CAS
You've told me nothing I don't already know and it doesn't contradict what I said.

I'd say the PL IC is the equivalent of the UEFA panel that found us guilty.

The IC appeal panel will also be a PL appointed entity (unlike CAS which is a truly independent arbitration service) and my instincts tell me not to trust it.

As I say, I hope I'm wrong on this. Our legal experts on here seem to trust the integrity of the process and the panel so let's hope I'm flapping unnecessarily.
 
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Andy Burnham was on the Sports Agents podcast a week or so ago and made an important point in this respect. He said that there was an obvious conflict of interest between the PL being both the promoter of a product and the regulator of it. I think that is spot on. Plainly there is a potential conflict between the role of developing the PL brand as much as possible and the role of ensuring regulatory compliance amongst its members. One of the reasons a lot of non-blues think we will "get off with it" is precisely because of that conflict. In recent years there have been a fair few instances of, for instance, professional bodies having their trade union and regulatory functions separated, so that for instance doctors' interests are promoted by the BMA but their conduct is regulated by the General Medical Council. Solicitors are protected by the Law Society but regulated by the Solicitors' Regulatory Authority.

In the case of the PL, the reality however seems to be even more nuanced. I would say there is wide recognition, at least on this forum, that the red top clubs, rags and dippers in particular, have a disproportionate amount of influence over the PL. The example everyone knows of is their role in the recruitment of Richard Masters, with the additional interview and the surprising withdrawal of other candidates who would have been offered the job before him. Surprisingly, or not according to perspective, that story (whilst plainly true as I recall it) did not get much traction amongst the mainstream media.

It seems to me the appointment of an independent regulator can only be a good thing. At the very least, we could be satisfied that a regulator with a statutory remit would be much less likely to do the bidding of the red shirts. At the very least, we would know that disciplinary charges were not brought from a desire to nobble a competitor. At best, an independent regulator can bring an end to some of the corruption that has surrounded the game at PL level.
I have argued for some time that UEFA should be two bodies, a regulator and a competition promoting/organising company. It’s bonkers being both.
That was stark in the case of PSG getting off ffp infractions, their president was, of course, also the head of Bein Sports who had just sponsored UEFA competitions and bought the tv rights for loads of money.
 
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That's not how a related party is defined though, for one thing. And I'd argue that, as Mancini's employer, City had a right to negotiate, or be heavily involved in the negotiation of, any side contract.

It is if you couple those points together. If you have the same principle owner of both and a director of one entity with the ability to negotiate contracts on behalf of the other, I’d argue that’d be a tough sell to say they aren’t related parties.
 
It is if you couple those points together. If you have the same principle owner of both and a director of one entity with the ability to negotiate contracts on behalf of the other, I’d argue that’d be a tough sell to say they aren’t related parties.
Sheikh Mansour is a related party to City and to Al Jazira but that doesn't make City & Al Jazira related parties.
 
Sheikh Mansour is a related party to City and to Al Jazira but that doesn't make City & Al Jazira related parties.

Not in itself, no, I never said it did. It does if decision making at one entity is influenced by the other though and it can if there’s negotiation done by one on behalf of the other, that’s what would be hard to argue.
 
By way of a diversion, here's my favourite bit of UEFA bullshit from CAS2020. After accusing just about everybody associated with City, the owner, execs, sponsors, accountants, auditors of a criminal consiparcy to commit fraud with NO evidence, they spouted this shite...
View attachment 111776
Just trying to cover their arse for the inevitable accusations of heading a witchhunt against us.

They're not even any good at spinning bullshit...
 
Thing is, why would 2009 City be arsed about keeping an extra couple of million off the books for Mancini's wage? There was no FFP and we were throwing huge sums of money around and incurring heavy losses. That they're even bringing this up just shows how desperate they are.

It makes as much sense that they believe that City must be state owned & Sheik Mansour is just a figure head but he’s paying the sponsorship for state owned Etihad…….

Mental gymnastics
 
A contract with a manager is not anything to do with related parties or am I missing something?

Correct imho. I think his point is that it looks suspicious for City directors/employees to be involved in negotiations/discussions with any company with which a senior employee has a second contract. I just don't see it. I think the opposite. It would be negligent not to be involved to ensure the club isn't at any fiscal or legal risk from a second contract.

The related party argument is a red herring. If Mancini had taken a part-time job to manage England in the international breaks I would equally expect the leading club to be involved in negotiations/discussions for the same reasons.
 
That’s exactly the potential issue though as your scenario is all within the same group. If Al Jazira was part of the CFG and his contract was negotiated by them on behalf of City and Al Jazira then that would have been fine (as long as the City side of it wasn’t deliberately undervalued).

I really don't see that it matters who discusses or negotiates what. The only important things are the signed contracts, who signed them, whether the amounts in each can be justified fiscally and whether the contracted services were provided or not. The rest is just noise, imho, released to make the club look guilty of something.

Put it this way, Pearce and the club executives can be asked by ADUG to discuss how much of Mancini's contracts should be paid by the club and how much should be paid by AJ, but it's AJ that have to sign the contract. If they don't like it. They don't sign. The emails mean nothing.

[ There may be some explaining necessary as to why, apparently, some payments were made to cover Mancini's AJ salary, but, once again, that doesn't concern me. I am sure there are business reasons for that. The fact I just don't know what they are doesn't make me uncomfortable. It just makes me ignorant :) ]

And as we all agree it is peanuts, it doesn't affect the true and fair view given by the accounts, it isn't fraudulent, there was no FFP at the time and no requirement to report manager's remuneration other than with the club, I really don't see any issue with any of this.
 
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Yeah I agree. Like I said even if they do pull us up on it and we don’t have a valid defence it really should be just a slap on the wrists.

I do think it’s only small fry what the PL potentially actually has on us though.

I find the idea that the club doesn't have a valid defence extraordinary, I have to say.

What is it about the other allegations that worries you?
 
I am not saying there are related party transactions or off the book payments. It's a split salary under two separate contracts. I don't see any problem with that as long as the amounts involved can be justified under both contracts. I would imagine that the club got legal and tax clearance before signing anyway.

It's apparent from the emails that the club was involved in negotiating the contracts and, it seems, in some payments. We can't pretend the implications of the emails don't exist. They have to be covered by the defence. But none of that bothers me particularly.

When I was getting a split salary, I wasn't negotiating separately with the three group companies. I negotiated with one, the lead company, and they handled the rest with the other companies. It's all normal to me.

All imho, of course. Feel free to disagree.
Surely they must be related party then or should be that’s what worries me your effectively saying they where group negations like being employed by City and CFG and CFG doing the contract for both
 

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