Middle East Conflict

[Churchlawtonblue]

I think it is a surprise or at least appalling - Jewish people are not the Israeli state and conflating the two allows that state to hide behind AS.

It is undoubtedly appalling that some people.conflate the two, but it doesn't surprise me. There's a lot of nasty thick people in this world.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Everyone agrees with that. Who hasn’t agreed with that?

It has nothing to do with whether Israel is committing genocide. And your numerous equivocations of Israeli’s genocidal actions does give the strong impression you either don’t believe they are committing genocide or don’t care that they are (largely, it seems, because other entities are also committing genocide?).

And if you are bored with this thread—and the so-called “anti-west sentiment” in it—then why continue to post in it?

Tbf to the guy, he has tried to be a consistently "level-headed" and "open-minded" poster throughout this thread, despite clearly being affected at a personal, emotional level by the October attack.

It must be exceedingly difficult for those in that situation to cross the Rubicon to join those of us who are less emotionally involved and have seen pretty clearly what has been happening since the first couple of weeks of the conflict, and the last 20 years, in fact.

My admiration for those who have done it, but I think those still struggling with it need understanding rather than a sledgehammer analysis of their individual posts.

All imho, of course.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Tbf to the guy, he has tried to be a consistently "level-headed" and "open-minded" poster throughout this thread, despite clearly being affected at a personal, emotional level by the October attack.

It must be exceedingly difficult for those in that situation to cross the Rubicon to join those of us who are less emotionally involved and have seen pretty clearly what has been happening since the first couple of weeks of the conflict, and the last 20 years, in fact.

My admiration for those who have done it, but I think those still struggling with it need understanding rather than a sledgehammer analysis of their individual posts.

All imho, of course.

I don’t agree at all that the poster has been “level-headed” or “open-minded” in their postings, nor do I think continual obfuscation of genocide (and repeated obvious strawman arguments to attack those denounce Netanyahu, et al) is deserving of “understanding”.

The poster has also not shared any indication that have been “affected at a personal, emotional level by the October attack”, whilst criticising those of us—like me—who do actually have a direct, personally stake In what is happening in Israel and Palestine.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I don’t agree at all that the poster has been “level-headed” or “open-minded” in their postings, nor do I think continual obfuscation of genocide (and repeated obvious strawman arguments to attack those denounce Netanyahu, et al) is deserving of “understanding”.

The poster has also not shared any indication that have been “affected at a personal, emotional level by the October attack”, whilst criticising those of us—like me—who do actually have a direct, personally stake In what is happening in Israel and Palestine.

So you are saying I was half right?

 

[SebastianBlue]

So you are saying I was half right?

No.

 

[halfcenturyup]

No.

:) Maybe I am mixing him up with another poster on here. I haven't been on much for a while. There didn't seem much point when what is happening has been so clear for so long.

Anyway, as you know, I do like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

[SebastianBlue]

:) Maybe I am mixing him up with another poster on here. I haven't been on much for a while. There didn't seem much point when what is happening has been so clear for so long.

Anyway, as you know, I do like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Ok.

 

[philiph20]

I think it is a surprise or at least appalling - Jewish people are not the Israeli state and conflating the two allows that state to hide behind AS.

Spot on, what has a Jewish person living in the UK, USA or wherever got to do with the antics of the Israeli Government and the IDF?, absolutely nothing it's like holding any of us responsible for the decisions of Sunak and CO, utterly bonkers. Any anger or venom should never be directed at ordinary citizens who just happen to share the same religion as the sick bastards at the helm, in this country vent at the likes of Sunak and 'Keith: those MPs who are 'Friends of...' etc.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

I am very glad macdonalds have listened. Maybe barclays will be next. The genocide, this mass murdering needs to stop now.

 

[Vic]

It's a conundrum that leaves us all with blood on our hands. Not sure what the proportion of GDP is, but I suspect that besides some other small scale niche / high tech stuff arms is our only significant manufacturing industry now. The continued viability of that depends on us parking our ethics when it comes to overseas sales.
I suppose because of this when another country buys our arms, they also buy our tacit political support.

Until they use the weapons against us, hence the Falklands cartoon, "Is it one of ours or one of ours?"

 

[Vic]

America needs wars to keep those defence companies in business.

“This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government.”​

President Dwight D Eisenhower, 1961


The United States spends more now on defense than it ever has – more than the next eight countries combined, four of which are close US allies.

But defense spending doesn’t happen in a vacuum; each dollar spent on defense is a dollar that could instead be spent on healthcare, on education, on sustainability.

 

[Vic]

Spot on, what has a Jewish person living in the UK, USA or wherever got to do with the antics of the Israeli Government and the IDF?, absolutely nothing it's like holding any of us responsible for the decisions of Sunak and CO, utterly bonkers. Any anger or venom should never be directed at ordinary citizens who just happen to share the same religion as the sick bastards at the helm, in this country vent at the likes of Sunak and 'Keith: those MPs who are 'Friends of...' etc.

What if that "Jewish person" supports the Israeli Government and the IDF? The Board of Deputies supports the Israeli government and the IDF.

You need a better way to avoid being antisemitic than pretending that no Jews who aren't living in Israel don't support the (genocidal) "antics" (or living in Israel). But it's not antisemitic to criticise Israeli actions, or those who support it. Biden is being criticised but that's not antisemitic. It's only antisemitic if you would criticise Israeli genocide but not other genocides.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

What if that "Jewish person" supports the Israeli Government and the IDF? The Board of Deputies supports the Israeli government and the IDF.

You need a better way to avoid being antisemitic than pretending that no Jews who aren't living in Israel don't support the (genocidal) "antics" (or living in Israel). But it's not antisemitic to criticise Israeli actions, or those who support it. Biden is being criticised but that's not antisemitic. It's only antisemitic if you would criticise Israeli genocide but not other genocides.

I'm sure some Jews do support those unpleasant things, but I still think AS and attacking them is not the way forward.

 

[SebastianBlue]

What if that "Jewish person" supports the Israeli Government and the IDF? The Board of Deputies supports the Israeli government and the IDF.

You need a better way to avoid being antisemitic than pretending that no Jews who aren't living in Israel don't support the (genocidal) "antics" (or living in Israel). But it's not antisemitic to criticise Israeli actions, or those who support it. Biden is being criticised but that's not antisemitic. It's only antisemitic if you would criticise Israeli genocide but not other genocides.

To be fair, I think they were specifically saying that Jewish people writ-large should not be held responsible for the genocidal acts being perpetrated by the IDF and the far-right Israeli regime.

They didn’t necessarily mean Jewish people that have shown (indirectly or directly) that they support those ongoing acts.

Those people are of course fair game for reasonably-framed criticism and admonishment.

 

[BayernMan]

I think it is a surprise or at least appalling - Jewish people are not the Israeli state and conflating the two allows that state to hide behind AS.

It’s unfortunate there are many in the Israeli government purposely conflating the two to further a very sick agenda.

 

[BayernMan]

This guy is a sociopath.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

It’s unfortunate there are many in the Israeli government purposely conflating the two to further a very sick agenda.

Indeed, and the same has happened at times within our own political system and media at times in recent years. Sad and dangerous - history has taught us we need to be vigilant for AS, and to cynically hide behind it is criminal.

 

[BayernMan]

Indeed, and the same has happened at times within our own political system and media at times in recent years. Sad and dangerous - history has taught us we need to be vigilant for AS, and to cynically hide behind it is criminal.

To be honest I don’t think many people on both sides are taking how serious this is. We have a rogue state saying it is killing children in the name of Jews. I can’t think of a better start to a dystopian story but somehow it is the reality we’re living in….

 

[philiph20]

It’s unfortunate there are many in the Israeli government purposely conflating the two to further a very sick agenda.

Not just the Israeli Government we have plenty here in politics and the media doing exactly the same.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

To be honest I don’t think many people on both sides are taking how serious this is. We have a rogue state saying it is killing children in the name of Jews. I can’t think of a better start to a dystopian story but somehow it is the reality we’re living in….

I worry about the longer term. I don't doubt the ability of the current Israeli govt to plough on and eradicate Palestinians to their hearts content, but I think it will draw decades of Islamist terrorism to Israel and those that are seen to support and arm the genocide. We appear to have learned nothing from the years since 9/11.