What has the UK become under the far right influence?

Palerider said:
Yes, I know that if we had an election you would get elected and I would not be getting my deposit back! However, to jump on the moral high ground (and why not), if sustainability and leaving something for future generations matters then we have to at least be as competitive as other countries. Otherwise we are just in a very, very slow Fall of the Roman Empire type scenario.
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The UK voted for Brexit. Not exactly screaming ‘we want to be competitive’ is it?

The UK is a top end European economy on a par with France that is currently doing its best to sabotage itself - the latest being its war on Universities and crippling the Social Care sector.

In a way it’s understandable. Our industrial and economic strategy was sunk in 2016 and there is literally nothing to replace it with that makes any economic sense, so the Tories have to fight cultural wars - like imposing mandatory servitude and unpaid labour schemes on the young because it appeals to people who are not young. That it would cost billions and be unworkable is not the point (see Rwanda a scheme that the Public Accounts Committee recently described as “little to show for the money spent…continually failed to be transparent with Parliament…fell woefully short of reality...does not have a credible plan"). This nonsense appeals to what is left of the Tory core vote. The elderly and social conservatives who would happily live in a hovel if it meant treating minorities badly.

You want to make us more competitive? I guess the first step is stop doing things that hinder that process. Stop trying to undermine the higher education sector which is a multi-billion industry which the UK excels at. Makes sense right? A sector we excel in and earns billions. Do we support it or try and sabotage it? Obviously we sabotage it. Who wants kids going to university anyway. Not their kids you understand but ‘other’ kids.

I could go on, but to improve our competitiveness also means having conversations this country literally does not want to have. Europe, immigration, how trade actually works, the value of a well educated and healthy population and so on.

Your suggestion is we all work harder and longer and ignore the quality of our lives. Any idea how ‘competitive’ tired, unhappy people actually are? Maybe pitch solutions that are aspirational rather than ones that sound like a punishment. Just a thought.
 
'Working harder' is not a solution. My granddad, who used to shovel coal into a locomotive firebox for a living, worked a darn sight harder than the modern equivalent who sits behind a moving desk, pushing buttons and moving levels. But what form of traction is the more efficient?

No, you have to work smarter and more productively. And to do that, you need to invest hugely in modern technology and working methods, something this country has a long track record of not being very good at.

It is also obviously not the brightest idea to erect trade barriers with your near neighbours, especially when you need to import an awful lot of food if the population is to have more than a bare living.

These are just two of the uncomfortable truths 'conservative' thinkers want to go away.
 
BobKowalski said:
The UK voted for Brexit. Not exactly screaming ‘we want to be competitive’ is it?

The UK is a top end European economy on a par with France that is currently doing its best to sabotage itself - the latest being its war on Universities and crippling the Social Care sector.

In a way it’s understandable. Our industrial and economic strategy was sunk in 2016 and there is literally nothing to replace it with that makes any economic sense, so the Tories have to fight cultural wars - like imposing mandatory servitude and unpaid labour schemes on the young because it appeals to people who are not young. That it would cost billions and be unworkable is not the point (see Rwanda a scheme that the Public Accounts Committee recently described as “little to show for the money spent…continually failed to be transparent with Parliament…fell woefully short of reality...does not have a credible plan"). This nonsense appeals to what is left of the Tory core vote. The elderly and social conservatives who would happily live in a hovel if it meant treating minorities badly.

You want to make us more competitive? I guess the first step is stop doing things that hinder that process. Stop trying to undermine the higher education sector which is a multi-billion industry which the UK excels at. Makes sense right? A sector we excel in and earns billions. Do we support it or try and sabotage it? Obviously we sabotage it. Who wants kids going to university anyway. Not their kids you understand but ‘other’ kids.

I could go on, but to improve our competitiveness also means having conversations this country literally does not want to have. Europe, immigration, how trade actually works, the value of a well educated and healthy population and so on.

Your suggestion is we all work harder and longer and ignore the quality of our lives. Any idea how ‘competitive’ tired, unhappy people actually are? Maybe pitch solutions that are aspirational rather than ones that sound like a punishment. Just a thought.
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No, my suggestion is not that we all work harder and longer. My point is that many people seem to want it all, great high paying job with a great quality of life. I'm saying that expectation is unrealistic and totally seperate from politics. It's people being unrealistic. There is no magic money tree, there is no sunlit uplands, there is no wonderful political system that solves everything. If you do not want to work harder than your competitors then do not complain if you don't win the gold medal.
 
BobKowalski said:
The UK voted for Brexit. Not exactly screaming ‘we want to be competitive’ is it?

The UK is a top end European economy on a par with France that is currently doing its best to sabotage itself - the latest being its war on Universities and crippling the Social Care sector.

In a way it’s understandable. Our industrial and economic strategy was sunk in 2016 and there is literally nothing to replace it with that makes any economic sense, so the Tories have to fight cultural wars - like imposing mandatory servitude and unpaid labour schemes on the young because it appeals to people who are not young. That it would cost billions and be unworkable is not the point (see Rwanda a scheme that the Public Accounts Committee recently described as “little to show for the money spent…continually failed to be transparent with Parliament…fell woefully short of reality...does not have a credible plan"). This nonsense appeals to what is left of the Tory core vote. The elderly and social conservatives who would happily live in a hovel if it meant treating minorities badly.

You want to make us more competitive? I guess the first step is stop doing things that hinder that process. Stop trying to undermine the higher education sector which is a multi-billion industry which the UK excels at. Makes sense right? A sector we excel in and earns billions. Do we support it or try and sabotage it? Obviously we sabotage it. Who wants kids going to university anyway. Not their kids you understand but ‘other’ kids.

I could go on, but to improve our competitiveness also means having conversations this country literally does not want to have. Europe, immigration, how trade actually works, the value of a well educated and healthy population and so on.

Your suggestion is we all work harder and longer and ignore the quality of our lives. Any idea how ‘competitive’ tired, unhappy people actually are? Maybe pitch solutions that are aspirational rather than ones that sound like a punishment. Just a thought.
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You don't mean all elderly people vote Tory and would live in a hovel to be able to treat monorities badly, do you?
 
When you look at the factors that make the population of a country ‘happy’ like Finland for example, the factors include; insignificant wealth inequality, trust between people and government and vice versa (considered a big one). Efficient and comprehensive social services, affinity with the countryside, a kind society.

Sounds just like us eh? Why are we such miserable buggers?
 
mancityvstoke said:
You don't mean all elderly people vote Tory and would live in a hovel to be able to treat monorities badly, do you?
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No. I often exaggerate for dramatic effect :)

And while the Tory core vote is the over 65’s, they are pretty much tied with Labour in this demographic.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
When you look at the factors that make the population of a country ‘happy’ like Finland for example, the factors include; insignificant wealth inequality, trust between people and government and vice versa (considered a big one). Efficient and comprehensive social services, affinity with the countryside, a kind society.

Sounds just like us eh? Why are we such miserable buggers?
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A country that is larger than the UK but with the population of half of our capital city. There's a start right there.

Nobody ever quotes a fairer comparison.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
When you look at the factors that make the population of a country ‘happy’ like Finland for example, the factors include; insignificant wealth inequality, trust between people and government and vice versa (considered a big one). Efficient and comprehensive social services, affinity with the countryside, a kind society.

Sounds just like us eh? Why are we such miserable buggers?
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They say the French are as well, never quite understood why, great scenery, gorgeous women, great food and a decent climate, the mind boggles.
 
mexico1970 said:
I'm saying make the comparison more realistic, you could compare the UK to France and Germany
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no thanks mate. That wasn’t the purpose of my original post. I simply described some attributes that ‘happy countries have’ on the basis there might be something we could aspire to. You don’t seem to think them applicable to the UK which is fair enough.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
no thanks mate. That wasn’t the purpose of my original post. I simply described some attributes that ‘happy countries have’ on the basis there might be something we could aspire to. You don’t seem to think them applicable to the UK which is fair enough.
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Or something to aspire to.
 
The Future’s Blue! said:
Or something to aspire to.
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But it's like asking for someone to aspire to something that isn't possible, a country twice the size of ours with only 5 million people compared to a place the size of just London with 10 million people living in it.

The only way we could possibly achieve it is to deport 68 million people.
 
so sad tonight - neighbours lad went out yesterday afternoon and won't be coming back. Local news and views site confirms the worst this evening. WTF is going on my eldest is only a decade older and had to navigate the issues around coming out - I despair what the last few years have done to our youth

 
mexico1970 said:
But it's like asking for someone to aspire to something that isn't possible, a country twice the size of ours with only 5 million people compared to a place the size of just London with 10 million people living in it.

The only way we could possibly achieve it is to deport 68 million people.
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Always an option. Can we start with the Rags, Tories and Reform.
 
The Future’s Blue! said:
Always an option. Can we start with the Rags, Tories and Reform.
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Funny thing about these types of poll is that people will moan like fuck about how shit the country is, but when asked, they’d vote their country is the best and how happy they are in it.

Then, if someone else dare criticise their country, they “aren’t patriotic and hate the west.”
 
Saddleworth2 said:
When you look at the factors that make the population of a country ‘happy’ like Finland for example, the factors include; insignificant wealth inequality, trust between people and government and vice versa (considered a big one). Efficient and comprehensive social services, affinity with the countryside, a kind society.

Sounds just like us eh? Why are we such miserable buggers?
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I travel to Germany and the Munich area a lot and I'd absolutely love to move there. The transport is great, efficient and cheap. The roads are well maintained and Munich airport is one of the nicest airports I've been to. The towns are beautiful, everybody cycles, there are nice restaurants and it's extremely relaxed.... You get the picture.

The biggest problem with the UK is it's extremely poorly regionalised. If you goto London then you see something that somewhat resembles the picture above but go elsewhere beyond the M25 and it can be almost 3rd world. The UK is actually a poor country but by statistics we're a rich country due to the concentration of wealth in the south. That doesn't mean everybody is rich in the south, it just means that's where our wealth as a country comes from.

To show the regionalisation problem, Manchester's GDP is £80bn which is absolute peanuts and less than 5% of total UK GDP but remember that Manchester is the 3rd biggest city in the UK! Manchester could be removed from the UK economy and it would make no difference. Pretty much every German city is doing far better than this, often double better.

However, look at London which has a GDP of over £700bn, this massively outpaces every European city by a huge margin. What we have in the UK is the most powerful city in the world whilst the rest of the country is far below average in comparison to the rest of Europe. This is pretty much why all of our infrastructure spend goes to London.

The rest of the country is built upon what came before, we have still have WW2 roads and railways but we don't have a WW2 era sized population... And we're drowning because of it.
 
bluethrunthru said:
so sad tonight - neighbours lad went out yesterday afternoon and won't be coming back. Local news and views site confirms the worst this evening. WTF is going on my eldest is only a decade older and had to navigate the issues around coming out - I despair what the last few years have done to our youth

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Working on the assumption that our youth haven't suddenly biologically devolved into less resilient people in a generation you have to presume that older generations have created the conditions for this crisis to occur but then mostly seem to have abdicated responsibility for addressing it. Little from the major parties about how we should be tackling this crisis; Lib Dems have mentioned it but Labour just muttered a few platitudes when Poulter crossed the floor, but little of substance. It's a major health and economic time bomb that should be a significant area of focus.
We used to be a country where generations laid down their lives for their children and their children's children. Now we seem to be happy to piss away their resources and opportunities and then call them snowflakes. There's always been generational misalignment in outlook but there was also an underlying tacit social contract that the majority were working at least in part to improve the lot of those to come. But that was when there was such a thing as 'society'.
 
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