How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[Gabriel]

Nope, they said it, some people chose to ignore it though because it doesn't fit their narrative.

They did say it. They just didn't admit that the consequences would be extremely painful and that the longed-for trade deals might not happen and might not compensate.

 

[mexico1970]

Lied to as in the benefits we would feel.

They said we would leave the single market and we did, now the goal posts got moved because that is a point proven?

The "Benefits we feel" is a bit wishy washy and vague.

 

[mexico1970]

They did say it. They just didn't admit that the consequences would be extremely painful and that the longed-for trade deals might not happen and might not compensate.

There are a lot of people who voted to remain try to convince everyone that we never intended to leave the single market and stop FOM, either they didn't know about it or they are outwardly lying.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

They did say it. They just didn't admit that the consequences would be extremely painful and that the longed-for trade deals might not happen and might not compensate.

He thinks it was a totally binary choice. Like in all his debates, he can’t see nuance.

 

[mosssideblue]

They said we would leave the single market and we did, now the goal posts got moved because that is a point proven?

The "Benefits we feel" is a bit wishy washy and vague.

Come off it. The sales pitch for the referendum was that we would be infinitely better off. I say again, we were lied to and even Johnson when cornered had to lie once again to claim he never said the NHS would get the extra money promised as a result of leaving

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Politicians from every party told the country that we would be out of the single market though.

I’d be surprised if you can find many of the Brexit protagonist’s saying that, certainly before the referendum. Cameron and the remain said it often and I believe it was called ‘project fear’.

A few examples, apologies for length of post.

“Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market” Daniel Hannan MEP

“Only a madman would actually leave the Market” Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

“Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing” Nigel Farage, Ukip leader

“The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initally attractive for some business people”- Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executive

“Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK” Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

"I would vote to stay in the single market. I'm in favour of the single market." Boris Johnson. Mind you, he said this in 2018

“EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

“British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.

“Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.”

“Britain would be able to trade in the European Free Trade Zone that stretches from Iceland to Turkey - this includes countries like Bosnia, Serbia and Albania” M..Gove

“When we get to the referendum, I hope it is a real debate about everything that Europe offers. You mentioned quite a few of those things: I would add the single market and single trade policy to that,” he told the devolved legislature at the time.


“Although estimates vary about how much wealth the single market generates for the UK, since we joined, it’s probably in the order of five, six, seven, eight per cent uplift to GDP.

“For somebody on an average salary that’s about £1,500 a year. Most people think that that’s worth having. I think when you put it in those terms, there’s a very clear benefit, that because we don’t see it every day, we’ve kind of forgotten about it but it is there and we’d begin to lose it if we weren’t part of it.” David Frost.

“My preference would be that we should remain within the customs union of the EU [even though we would] give up some freedoms in terms of negotiating our trading arrangements with third countries,” he said.

“The advantage would be that our manufacturers would not face complex and punitive rules-of-origin tariffs.” David Davis.

 

[mexico1970]

Come off it. The sales pitch for the referendum was that we would be infinitely better off. I say again, we were lied to and even Johnson when cornered had to lie once again to claim he never said the NHS would get the extra money promised as a result of leaving

I didn't say it wasn't shit it was, what I am saying is that on this one topic they were clear. We voted to stop FOM and leave the single market.

It all really heated up when Cameron went to Brussels and came back with a few stickers off of a happy meal instead of a deal from the EU.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

I read it correctly, what makes you think I didn't? By making this work we have to stop whinging about it and work through it because we had a vote that everyone understood even though one side of the argument believes anyone who doesn't think like they do are stupid.

People voted mainly to leave the single market and end FOM, yet people are concentrating on signing back up for it. We can start by agreeing that's just remainer talk no?

Again, that is not accurate though is it? It isnt, because it cannot be. It was based on misinformation. No facts were used, and there was certainly no explanation around what the consequences would be, or how leaving would actually be achieved. "Everyone understood". Sorry, that is demonstrably wrong.

 

[mexico1970]

I’d be surprised if you can find many of the Brexit protagonist’s saying that, certainly before the referendum. Cameron and the remain said it often and I believe it was called ‘project fear’.

A few examples, apologies for length of post.

“Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market” Daniel Hannan MEP

“Only a madman would actually leave the Market” Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

“Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing” Nigel Farage, Ukip leader

“The Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initally attractive for some business people”- Matthew Elliot, Vote Leave chief executive

“Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK” Arron Banks, Leave.EU founder

"I would vote to stay in the single market. I'm in favour of the single market." Boris Johnson. Mind you, he said this in 2018

“EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

“British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.

“Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.”

“Britain would be able to trade in the European Free Trade Zone that stretches from Iceland to Turkey - this includes countries like Bosnia, Serbia and Albania” M..Gove

“When we get to the referendum, I hope it is a real debate about everything that Europe offers. You mentioned quite a few of those things: I would add the single market and single trade policy to that,” he told the devolved legislature at the time.


“Although estimates vary about how much wealth the single market generates for the UK, since we joined, it’s probably in the order of five, six, seven, eight per cent uplift to GDP.

“For somebody on an average salary that’s about £1,500 a year. Most people think that that’s worth having. I think when you put it in those terms, there’s a very clear benefit, that because we don’t see it every day, we’ve kind of forgotten about it but it is there and we’d begin to lose it if we weren’t part of it.” David Frost.

“My preference would be that we should remain within the customs union of the EU [even though we would] give up some freedoms in terms of negotiating our trading arrangements with third countries,” he said.

“The advantage would be that our manufacturers would not face complex and punitive rules-of-origin tariffs.” David Davis.

Before the referendum the main leader announced that we would be leaving the single market, we can't hold Boris up as an example of good faith because he flipped in 2018 can we?

 

[Gabriel]

If we agreed to the T&Cs, it’d be simple. We’d have to be rule takers, but we signed up to that and will have to accept that as part of the “shit show”.

I still feel that there is a degree of hubris among Westminster politicians. Labour will probably feel they can make a better job of it, but once the honeymoon period is over (a year?), it will be their show, their responsibility, and their job to come up with a solution. I would imagine things will remain unchanged until maybe year 2-3 of the coming Parliament, at which time Labour will realise it is time to re-open the discussion.

 

[Kippaxpete]

They said we would leave the single market and we did, now the goal posts got moved because that is a point proven?

The "Benefits we feel" is a bit wishy washy and vague.

Given you fight so hard to defend it, you must believe there are 'benefits' in leaving the world's largest trading block though.
Please enlighten us. Oh and without using the words 'sovereignty' or 'blue passport'.
; )

 

[mexico1970]

Again, that is not accurate though is it? It isnt, because it cannot be. It was based on misinformation. No facts were used, and there was certainly no explanation around what consequences would be, or how leaving would actually be achieved. "Everyone understood". Sorry, that is demonstrably wrong.

Are you saying that it wasn't said that we would be leaving the single market? If you are then that is demonstrably wrong.

The effects of that decision are different you could argue the truth wasn't told there, but the fact we were leaving is an actual fact.

 

[mexico1970]

Given you fight so hard to defend it, you must believe there are 'benefits' in leaving the world's largest trading block though.
Please enlighten us. Oh and without using the words 'sovereignty' or 'blue passport'.
; )

I can't defend it, it was shit. But what I wont fall into is the trap that people weren't told certain things when they were.

Passports aren't that important, every person alive who wants to leave these shores or get back to these shores needs one :)

 

[mosssideblue]

Again, that is not accurate though is it? It isnt, because it cannot be. It was based on misinformation. No facts were used, and there was certainly no explanation around what the consequences would be, or how leaving would actually be achieved. "Everyone understood". Sorry, that is demonstrably wrong.

Eaxctly. His argument appears to be we knew we would be leaving (which is true), not that we were spun lies to want us to vote to leave

 

[mexico1970]

Eaxctly. His argument appears to be we knew we would be leaving (which is true), not that we were spun lies to want us to vote to leave

I haven't said that we weren't spun lies, I said in this particular instance we weren't. They said we were leaving the single market and we did.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

Are you saying that it wasn't said that we would be leaving the single market? If you are then that is demonstrably wrong.

The effects of that decision are different you could argue the truth wasn't told there, but the fact we were leaving is an actual fact.

You said that we had a vote that everyone understood. Look at the image below. Everyone understood shit

 

[mosssideblue]

I can't defend it, it was shit. But what I wont fall into is the trap that people weren't told certain things when they were.

Passports aren't that important, every person alive who wants to leave these shores or get back to these shores needs one :)

I see where you are coming from and we are obviously at crossed purposes.

Yes, we understood that if we voted for leave, then we would leave - your point
We were lied to badly to get us to vote to leave - mine (and others points)

 

[mexico1970]

You said that we had a vote that everyone understood. Look at the image below. Everyone understood shit

View attachment 124300

I said we were told that we were leaving the single market, and we were and we did. Do you actually believe everyone who votes digests every minute detail of a policy?

You have to catch the moment inform the public and remain did a shit job, if they'd have concentrated on facts instead of flinging shit we might not be here now.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

All scenarios of leave were thrown at the electorate at the time. It’s a bit disingenuous to suggest leaving everything was the only card in the table.

Yet here we are, 8 years later with a baboon slinging shit in this thread as he’s got fuck all to say on the election threads.

 

[mexico1970]

I see where you are coming from and we are obviously at crossed purposes.

Yes, we understood that if we voted for leave, then we would leave - your point
We were lied to badly to get us to vote to leave - mine (and others points)

I haven't said we weren't lied to, on this point though we were told the truth. Same question to you, do you honestly believe other than the political students who are still mired in the 6th form political ethics the rest of the population are genuinely interested enough to wade through shit posited by ideologs to get to the nit and gritty?