PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

In fact thinking about it, the less witnesses the PL has, the better.

There is no point Masters coming along and giving evidence on the decision making process to charge City, as it has no probative evidential value. The only PL witnesses who will have any evidential value are those who can attest to the substance of the charges as they have witnessed something material that supports them, or because they are an expert in a relevant field, presumably in finance.

What are Masters, or any of the PL hierarchy going to add evidently to the charges, other than in relation to non-cooperation?

It’s possible they can, of course, but struggling to see how.
 
BlueRockape said:
Can Panick demand his appearance?
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Assuming this hearing is subject to the Arbitration Act 1996, then under section 43, and with the agreement of the tribunal City can apply (I think to the High Court) for a witness summons but there would have to be a compelling and specific evidential purpose for that application to be granted, not simply on the basis of a fishing expedition. It would have to be in the interests of justice to compel someone to attend, presumably against their will.

So highly unlikely I would say.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
In fact thinking about it, the less witnesses the PL has, the better.

There is no point Masters coming along and giving evidence on the decision making process to charge City, as it has no probative evidential value. The only PL witnesses who will have any evidential value are those who can attest to the substance of the charges as they have witnessed something material that supports them, or because they are an expert in a relevant field, presumably in finance.

What are Masters, or any of the PL hierarchy going to add evidently to the charges, other than in relation to non-cooperation?

It’s possible they can, of course, but struggling to see how.
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I agree. The only other issue I think the PL witnesses may be important is if the PL deny knowledge of certain matters at the time. That is likely to be clear in the documents but if not, say, City's witness say they were discussed orally and the PL says they have no record of such a discussion, then some witness cross examination may be necessary. I'd say quite difficult to see how Masters has any meaningful evidence at all on the substantive matters. So PL witnesses (aside from expert witnesses) are largely a red herring.

NB: Masters did give a witness statement for Everton on the points recommendation from the PL's standpoint so that may be relevant but it is unlikely a) for this initial IC b) something for cross examination - it is more a submission by the PL.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Assuming this hearing is subject to the Arbitration Act 1996, then under section 43, and with the agreement of the tribunal City can apply (I think to the High Court) for a witness summons but there would have to be a compelling and specific evidential purpose for that application to be granted, not simply on the basis of a fishing expedition. It would have to be in the interests of justice to compel someone to attend, presumably against their will.

So highly unlikely I would say.
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I agree with this also. Almost no chance - and you don't want an adverse witness where you have no idea what he/she will say anyway.
 
mancboy said:
I would think seeing as he mumbled and fumbled his way through the government enquiry it would be remiss not to call him.
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Call him and ask him about the process to appoint him to the role? Cross examine him on where the investigation was when he joined, and why he decided to proceed, question him on the timing of the charges, the errors in the original charges, and then get stuck into his emails to establish who is influencing him and pulling his strings…. Box office stuff.
 
slbsn said:
I agree. The only other issue I think the PL witnesses may be important is if the PL deny knowledge of certain matters at the time. That is likely to be clear in the documents but if not, say, City's witness say they were discussed orally and the PL says they have no record of such a discussion, then some witness cross examination may be necessary. I'd say quite difficult to see how Masters has any meaningful evidence at all on the substantive matters. So PL witnesses (aside from expert witnesses) are largely a red herring.

NB: Masters did give a witness statement for Everton on the points recommendation from the PL's standpoint so that may be relevant but it is unlikely a) for this initial IC b) something for cross examination - it is more a submission by the PL.
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May be misremembering, but did you say Masters appeared before the APT tribunal? If so, was he a City witness or a PL witness?
 
slbsn said:
In fairness, the sponsorship allegations, if all proved, are quite material and serious albeit quite a while ago.
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Seems their allegations were at a time when the current business plan was developing and needed investment.

Now the BP has shown its superiority in all aspects of the City business the PL are left with their failure to stop it in its early stages. Can't be their fault their rule changes didn't work so it must be hidden somewhere and not showing in the published accounts.
 
Milesvk said:
Seeing some people asking if city's evidence at the beginning is so strong could charges be dropped.
Different scenario but hopefully might produce some optimism.
I was in crown court on a 2 week trial (as the accused) on day 1, after the jury was sworn in, the prosecution presented its case against me and others. The judge called up the prosecution barrister and directly asked him what the case was against me. The barrister replayed a video of my actions, the judge pulled a de-niro type face saying 'really'.
I still had to go through all the process, cross examination and everything else.
The judge stated in his closing speech to the jury to basically not to find me guilty. The jury found me not guilty.
Think the point I'm making is even if it's a slam dunk for city on day one, I imagine the whole process will have to be completed and concluded.
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How did your exposed penis look on the footage?
 
slbsn said:
I agree. The only other issue I think the PL witnesses may be important is if the PL deny knowledge of certain matters at the time. That is likely to be clear in the documents but if not, say, City's witness say they were discussed orally and the PL says they have no record of such a discussion, then some witness cross examination may be necessary. I'd say quite difficult to see how Masters has any meaningful evidence at all on the substantive matters. So PL witnesses (aside from expert witnesses) are largely a red herring.

NB: Masters did give a witness statement for Everton on the points recommendation from the PL's standpoint so that may be relevant but it is unlikely a) for this initial IC b) something for cross examination - it is more a submission by the PL.
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It’s funny when you’re not fully immersed in something, and you apply your mind to it fleetingly, you can easily miss something. I always assumed at the back of my mind Masters would give evidence, but thinking about it, it doesn’t make sense, so it was a red herring!

Difficult to see any oral discussions that weren’t minuted taking the case very far one way or the other. Would that even constitute ‘knowledge’? I expect the PL rules require any notification to them to be in writing?

And yes, Masters’ view on sanctions will have no evidential merit whatsoever. That’s plainly a matter for submissions upon a finding of the charges being proved (in part or full).
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
It’s funny when you’re not fully immersed in something, and you apply your mind to it fleetingly, you can easily miss something. I always assumed at the back of my mind Masters would give evidence, but thinking about it, it doesn’t make sense, so it was a red herring!

Difficult to see any oral discussions that weren’t minuted taking the case very far one way or the other. Would that even constitute ‘knowledge’? I expect the PL rules require any notification to them to be in writing?

And yes, Masters’ view on sanctions will have no evidential merit whatsoever. That’s plainly a matter for submissions upon a finding of the charges being proved (in part or full).
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Can the club call him as a hostile witness? Does that even exist, or have I been watching too many movies? :)
 
slbsn said:
I agree. The only other issue I think the PL witnesses may be important is if the PL deny knowledge of certain matters at the time. That is likely to be clear in the documents but if not, say, City's witness say they were discussed orally and the PL says they have no record of such a discussion, then some witness cross examination may be necessary. I'd say quite difficult to see how Masters has any meaningful evidence at all on the substantive matters. So PL witnesses (aside from expert witnesses) are largely a red herring.

NB: Masters did give a witness statement for Everton on the points recommendation from the PL's standpoint so that may be relevant but it is unlikely a) for this initial IC b) something for cross examination - it is more a submission by the PL.
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I would have thought, if we need to get to the punishment stage, Masters would again set out what the PL would anticipate as being a fair one. IIRC didn't Masters' suggestion get dismissed by the independent panel who came up with their own punishment (identical to Masters' suggestion)?
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
In fact thinking about it, the less witnesses the PL has, the better.

There is no point Masters coming along and giving evidence on the decision making process to charge City, as it has no probative evidential value. The only PL witnesses who will have any evidential value are those who can attest to the substance of the charges as they have witnessed something material that supports them, or because they are an expert in a relevant field, presumably in finance.

What are Masters, or any of the PL hierarchy going to add evidently to the charges, other than in relation to non-cooperation?

It’s possible they can, of course, but struggling to see how.
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It's an interesting question which is, as you suggest, difficult to answer absent sight of the evidence. However, my thinking is that the decision-making progress in bringing the charges may form part of the case because the question of "good faith" in the allegations is subjective.

That is to say someone at the PL has looked at the evidence and formed the opinion that City's actions constutute dishonesty. Whilst, obviously, it is ultimately for the Commission to decide, as it's implicit in the most serious charges, it would seem to be legitimate to cross examine whoever made that decision to bring out whether that opinion was arrived at properly.

Unlike, for example, the Secretary of State who, because (s)he can't see everything, is accepted as being able to delegate that power to their civil servants, I don't think Masters can shift that responsibility. Given the seriousness of the case and all its implications, he absolutely must have signed off on it and, therefore, should be able to justify it.

City, may, of course, believe that the decision-making process was impeccable or that there is nothing to be gained by challenging it but I suspect not and that Masters will end up being cross examined. I certainly hope so.
 
halfcenturyup said:
Can the club call him as a hostile witness? Does that even exist, or have I been watching too many movies? :)
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Hostile witnesses are the preserve of the criminal courts and is where your own witness is giving unexpected and unhelpful answers when being examined in chief. In those circumstances you can apply to the court to treat the (and your own) witness as hostile and thereby cross examine them.

In a civil setting witnesses aren’t examined in chief and so it doesn’t arise.
 
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