PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

Chris in London said:
No they won’t. The PL have to show the services outlined in the Al Jazira contract, were NOT separate, and were NOT perfectly normal.

They have to show, in other words, that the contract was a sham.

Have they asked Al Jazira? Have they even asked Mancini? You can’t prove a contract is a sham unless both parties intend it should not be binding.

I’m not aware they have evidence that either didn’t intend to be bound by those terms, let alone both.
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@Chris in London Mancini has previously stated that he has had no contact with the PL.
This is what I find totally amazing. Whether it is a police investigation or an internal disciplinary inquiry at Tescos, you would always look to speak to the main witness. Obviously they could lie or even refuse to speak to you but, the witness just might give you all the evidence you require.
If the PL had asked Mancini and he backed up everything they are alleging we would not now be pissing about it London.
It shows how amateurish this witch hunt really is and who is driving it.
For the record Mancini stated everything was above board and that he would attend any hearing to give evidence. Again this shows that the investigation was deliberately stretched out to cause maximum damage to City, it has no integrity.
 
fitzy blue said:
Quite incredible how much negative media coverage we get.
Don't care what the jealous haters say.
No matter what the end result is with this 115 crap, the stats and facts say we are currently the best football team on planet earth.
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Just like when someone wants to migrate here.. they are migrants/ illegals..

But when we want to migrate somewhere.. we're ex-pats


City have done more to educate the whole country on it than anyone else in recorded history and you can basically sum it up with one word against our chairman and owners: RACISM

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Chris in London said:
No they won’t. The PL have to show the services outlined in the Al Jazira contract, were NOT separate, and were NOT perfectly normal.

They have to show, in other words, that the contract was a sham.

Have they asked Al Jazira? Have they even asked Mancini? You can’t prove a contract is a sham unless both parties intend it should not be binding.

I’m not aware they have evidence that either didn’t intend to be bound by those terms, let alone both.
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My point in the discussion I was having (iirc, it was a while ago) was that we can't just look at the literal wording of P7 and P8 and then say Mancini isn't a problem. There is, indeed, the issue of sham contract and accounting.

Yes, of course the burden of proof is on the PL, but there is evidence available in the leaked documents that would suggest the club were involved in negotiating and paying the AJ contract. Enough, I would imagine, for the Panel at least to consider the possibility of finding for the PL on the balance of probabilities. It seems to me the club have to counter that and they will quite easily and quite comprehensively by showing how the contract was separate, how it was fulfilled and accounted for internally and externally and by providing witness statements from third parties.

As for Mancini and AJ, the PL has the same problem they have for Etihad and Etisalat, as I understand it. They don't have access. All they can do is ask the club to provide third party information "when able to do so".

Perfectly willing to admit I may be wrong on any of that, though, as always. I am (thank God) no lawyer and am here to learn :)
 
cheekybids said:
How can they accuse us of non-cooperation on Mancinis contract if they never spoke to Mancini or the club. Imagine we say that’s not true but you need to speak to the parties involved. If they can’t prove they made any effort then they’ve not cooperated with their own investigation.
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The PL may have asked the club for information from AJ and Mancini but City said they were unable to provide it. The PL can't just ask third parties for information directly, as I understand it, they can only ask City to provide it "when able to do so". Which is the biggest problem they have with all the allegations I think and, I would imagine, the main element of their non-cooperation allegation.
 
halfcenturyup said:
The PL may have asked the club for information from AJ and Mancini but City said they were unable to provide it. The PL can't just ask third parties for information directly, as I understand it, they can only ask City to provide it "when able to do so". Which is the biggest problem they have with all the allegations I think and, I would imagine, the main element of their non-cooperation allegation.
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Mancini has said he would have been happy to talk to them.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
As you well know, you don't use a witness who can harm your case more than they can help it. I can't believe they expect to land the Mancini-related charges.

Given the outcome at CAS, I also can't believe they expect they can land the sponsorship charges. If I'm right that they knew about Fordham back in 2015, and neither UEFA nor the PL did anything at the time or subsequently, then they surely can't be confident they can land that either. So why do this?

We've speculated that it's just to damage our reputation, which looks more and more like a rational explanation, plus they might hope to get us on the non-cooperation allegations. Given the cost of this to the PL, if I was one of the non-cartel member clubs of the PL, I'd be asking some very searching questions once this is over.
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Agree that I can't see the PL landing any of the main charges (with the possible exception of Toure which I don't know much about but is small anyway).

On the reason for pursuing the allegations, do you think there is any merit in my view that, at the end, they had no choice? They had investigated for four years and City were presumably withholding key external evidence, so they had a choice: drop the investigation which would set a terrible precedent, or refer the allegations knowing that the external evidence will disprove them when it is provided which would be a terrible result for the cost involved.

There are questions around the investigation and why and when it was carried out, but for the decision to eventually refer the allegations I am not sure they had a choice.

I have said before I think the club know exactly what they are doing, and have the PL exactly where they want them on this whole thing. Clever stuff.

Or maybe it's all bollocks. Interested in your view, though.
 
halfcenturyup said:
My point in the discussion I was having (iirc, it was a while ago) was that we can't just look at the literal wording of P7 and P8 and then say Mancini isn't a problem. There is, indeed, the issue of sham contract and accounting.

Yes, of course the burden of proof is on the PL, but there is evidence available in the leaked documents that would suggest the club were involved in negotiating and paying the AJ contract. Enough, I would imagine, for the Panel at least to consider the possibility of finding for the PL on the balance of probabilities. It seems to me the club have to counter that and they will quite easily and quite comprehensively by showing how the contract was separate, how it was fulfilled and accounted for internally and externally and by providing witness statements from third parties.

As for Mancini and AJ, the PL has the same problem they have for Etihad and Etisalat, as I understand it. They don't have access. All they can do is ask the club to provide third party information "when able to do so".

Perfectly willing to admit I may be wrong on any of that, though, as always. I am (thank God) no lawyer and am here to learn :)
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If I may say so, the error here is to assume that the artificial and the sham are synonymous. There is however a world of difference between the two. Imagine the scenario plays out like this.

City have it in mind that they will be sacking Hughes’s before too long and think Mancini is their go-to guy. Mancini says “if you want me, hire me, otherwise I’m on the market and may be in another job by the time you decide you do want me.” City, not wanting to take that chance, says this; “our owner also owns a club in the UAE. They will pay you for a modest amount of consultancy work until the time is right.” Mancini looks at his severance packet from Inter and thinks “that works.”

All That might be wholly artificial but it is certainly not a sham. A sham is where two people sign a contract that neither of whom intend to be bound by. I think if anyone had asked Mancini he would very much have intended that he would be paid.

When AJ entered into the contract with Mancini HHSM and his advisers may have had their eye on what would happen if/when Hughes got the axe. That does not make it concealment for remuneration under a contract between a club MCFC don’t own and a manager City don’t employ not to feature in MCFC accounts.
 
Chris in London said:
If I may say so, the error here is to assume that the artificial and the sham are synonymous. There is however a world of difference between the two. Imagine the scenario plays out like this.

City have it in mind that they will be sacking Hughes’s before too long and think Mancini is their go-to guy. Mancini says “if you want me, hire me, otherwise I’m on the market and may be in another job by the time you decide you do want me.” City, not wanting to take that chance, says this; “our owner also owns a club in the UAE. They will pay you for a modest amount of consultancy work until the time is right.” Mancini looks at his severance packet from Inter and thinks “that works.”

All That might be wholly artificial but it is certainly not a sham. A sham is where two people sign a contract that neither of whom intend to be bound by. I think if anyone had asked Mancini he would very much have intended that he would be paid.

When AJ entered into the contract with Mancini HHSM and his advisers may have had their eye on what would happen if/when Hughes got the axe. That does not make it concealment for remuneration under a contract between a club MCFC don’t own and a manager City don’t employ not to feature in MCFC accounts.
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Thanks for that. I suppose it's the contract equivalent of @Prestwich_Blue 's argument that not everything accounting is fraudulent just because you don't agree with it. Makes sense to me.

More to the point: do you never sleep?
 
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Chris in London said:
If I may say so, the error here is to assume that the artificial and the sham are synonymous. There is however a world of difference between the two. Imagine the scenario plays out like this.

City have it in mind that they will be sacking Hughes’s before too long and think Mancini is their go-to guy. Mancini says “if you want me, hire me, otherwise I’m on the market and may be in another job by the time you decide you do want me.” City, not wanting to take that chance, says this; “our owner also owns a club in the UAE. They will pay you for a modest amount of consultancy work until the time is right.” Mancini looks at his severance packet from Inter and thinks “that works.”

All That might be wholly artificial but it is certainly not a sham. A sham is where two people sign a contract that neither of whom intend to be bound by. I think if anyone had asked Mancini he would very much have intended that he would be paid.

When AJ entered into the contract with Mancini HHSM and his advisers may have had their eye on what would happen if/when Hughes got the axe. That does not make it concealment for remuneration under a contract between a club MCFC don’t own and a manager City don’t employ not to feature in MCFC accounts.
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Wasn’t that what we were accused of on the Sunday Supplement when they said Mancini was in the stadium.
 
halfcenturyup said:
Safe in the knowledge they can't ask him directly? :)
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I still don’t know why you can’t ask a 3rd party a question. They aren’t obligated to answer but I see no problem in asking Mancini if he’d be happy to explain what his consultancy role was in the UAE. If he says no it’s a different matter but not approach is wrong.
 
halfcenturyup said:
Agree that I can't see the PL landing any of the main charges (with the possible exception of Toure which I don't know much about but is small anyway).

On the reason for pursuing the allegations, do you think there is any merit in my view that, at the end, they had no choice? They had investigated for four years and City were presumably withholding key external evidence, so they had a choice: drop the investigation which would set a terrible precedent, or refer the allegations knowing that the external evidence will disprove them when it is provided which would be a terrible result for the cost involved.

There are questions around the investigation and why and when it was carried out, but for the decision to eventually refer the allegations I am not sure they had a choice.

I have said before I think the club know exactly what they are doing, and have the PL exactly where they want them on this whole thing. Clever stuff.

Or maybe it's all bollocks. Interested in your view, though.
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They set precedents all the time. Liverpool / City hacking was considered too old & resolved. Surely that’s the same precedent as an allegation from 2009 & an investigation cleared by CAS.

The question is despite this being so old, investigated by CAS was there still an appetite to charge, embarrass, damage your own product with little opportunity for success.
 
cheekybids said:
They set precedents all the time. Liverpool / City hacking was considered too old & resolved. Surely that’s the same precedent as an allegation from 2009 & an investigation cleared by CAS.

The question is despite this being so old, investigated by CAS was there still an appetite to charge, embarrass, damage your own product with little opportunity for success.
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The hacking was settled between the parties, I guess that's the reason.

I am also guessing the current allegations may cover some of the same issues as CAS, but for more years, so the PL can say they couldn't rely entirely on the CAS award. But that is more a question of why the investigation should/shouldn't have been stopped "at the beginning" (more or less). That's an interesting question which could be answered. And I think we all know the answer. But at some point, the PL investigators lhad to shit or get off the can because they had obtained all the "evidence" they were going to get internally from the club, and the club wasn't giving them access to external information. Getting off the can wasn't a real option by then. Imho.
 
halfcenturyup said:
The hacking was settled between the parties, I guess that's the reason.

I am also guessing the current allegations may cover some of the same issues as CAS, but for more years, so the PL can say they couldn't rely entirely on the CAS award. But that is more a question of why the investigation should/shouldn't have been stopped "at the beginning" (more or less). That's an interesting question which could be answered. And I think we all know the answer. But at some point, the PL investigators lhad to shit or get off the can because they had obtained all the "evidence" they were going to get internally from the club, and the club wasn't giving them access to external information. Getting off the can wasn't a real option by then. Imho.
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I know what you’re saying but all the time authoritaries, regulators make decisions if it’s right to proceed. There was no appetite to proceed with the hacking because nobody was lobbying. There was no appetite to investigate Liverpool for their stadium costs because nobody is lobbying.

A strong & competent CEO would have managed the lobbyists by explaining that there is no evidence of wrongdoing only innuendo & the cost & damage to the brand isn’t worth it.
 
cheekybids said:
I know what you’re saying but all the time authoritaries, regulators make decisions if it’s right to proceed. There was no appetite to proceed with the hacking because nobody was lobbying. There was no appetite to investigate Liverpool for their stadium costs because nobody is lobbying.

A strong & competent CEO would have managed the lobbyists by explaining that there is no evidence of wrongdoing only innuendo & the cost & damage to the brand isn’t worth it.
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Agree with you completely about how wise it was and exactly why the PL went down this particular rabbit hole. These are all good questions. And obviously I agree that Masters quite clearly isn't an impressive CEO.

But, at some point you get so far down an investigative rabbit hole you can't get back out. You have to go all the way and either find your rabbit, or find there isn't one.

To continue the analogy, I think in this case the bloody rabbit is behind you filling in the rabbit hole as you go deeper so there is, in fact, no way to back out. For the avoidance of doubt, the rabbit in this story is the club, you are the PL and there is no rabbit left in the rabbit hole when you finally get to the end of it. Oh, and the PL are going to end up dead and buried :)
 
halfcenturyup said:
Agree that I can't see the PL landing any of the main charges (with the possible exception of Toure which I don't know much about but is small anyway).

On the reason for pursuing the allegations, do you think there is any merit in my view that, at the end, they had no choice? They had investigated for four years and City were presumably withholding key external evidence, so they had a choice: drop the investigation which would set a terrible precedent, or refer the allegations knowing that the external evidence will disprove them when it is provided which would be a terrible result for the cost involved.

There are questions around the investigation and why and when it was carried out, but for the decision to eventually refer the allegations I am not sure they had a choice.

I have said before I think the club know exactly what they are doing, and have the PL exactly where they want them on this whole thing. Clever stuff.

Or maybe it's all bollocks. Interested in your view, though.
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The bit I really do not get is 4 years to complete an investigation. Was it carried out by the office junior who picked it up and put down when they got bored or had to go on day release?

4 years, teams could win lots of trophies in 4 years and yes, I know it’s unlikely but a team could possibly win 4 consecutive premier league titles ;-)
 
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