Middle East Conflict

[bluethrunthru]

Never have the words targeted - surgical - terrorist - strike and a few more have been misused and rendered obsolescent by a country for whom they are a 2nd language been ignored by those for whom they are their first language simply to deny an atrocity is remarkable

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I think you missed the point there. Paramilitary Hamas allegedly use human shields to supposedly protect them from the IDF (who don't care). "Civilian" (armed) settlers use the IDF to support their criminality.

If you can find all the “criminals vs civilians” in this whole mess, you’d be a miracle worker!

But, while the shields are different, I think I’d take the IDF shield for a little criminality over the use of the general population you purport to represent being used as human shields.

If we are going to parse every action, we will find no end of issues with which to take umbrage or compare bad vs worse.

Regardless of one’s view of what is currently going on, there can be very, very few people on earth who do not want a cessation of hostilities and a resumption of talking, in an attempt to find a long term solution to the incessant death and destruction in the region.

The problem, at present, is that those very, very few appear to be driving the agenda.

 

[Vic]

If you can find all the “criminals vs civilians” in this whole mess, you’d be a miracle worker!

But, while the shields are different, I think I’d take the IDF shield for a little criminality over the use of the general population you purport to represent being used as human shields.

If we are going to parse every action, we will find no end of issues with which to take umbrage or compare bad vs worse.

Regardless of one’s view of what is currently going on, there can be very, very few people on earth who do not want a cessation of hostilities and a resumption of talking, in an attempt to find a long term solution to the incessant death and destruction in the region.

The problem, at present, is that those very, very few appear to be driving the agenda.

Not to quibble with your conclusion, but I'm not "purporting" the human shield argument, that's Israel.

And if you think "a little criminality" by settlers in the West Bank is justified, that does not sound like someone who really wants a cessation of hostilities.

 

[Palerider]

If you can find all the “criminals vs civilians” in this whole mess, you’d be a miracle worker!

But, while the shields are different, I think I’d take the IDF shield for a little criminality over the use of the general population you purport to represent being used as human shields.

If we are going to parse every action, we will find no end of issues with which to take umbrage or compare bad vs worse.

Regardless of one’s view of what is currently going on, there can be very, very few people on earth who do not want a cessation of hostilities and a resumption of talking, in an attempt to find a long term solution to the incessant death and destruction in the region.

The problem, at present, is that those very, very few appear to be driving the agenda.

I think that is a good assessment. On both sides there seems to be a very large group of 'evil cunts' who want complete victory 'from the river to the sea Palestine/Israel will be free' types. Without the removal of these extreme violence supporting factions then it is difficult to see how you arrive at peace. Many do not want, or can even stomach, the very idea of a two state solution. Madness. Absolutely no hope until you get reasonable decent people in charge of both countries and those leaders are then backed by an overwhelming majority of their compatriots.

 

[The blue phantom]

I think that is a good assessment. On both sides there seems to be a very large group of 'evil cunts' who want complete victory 'from the river to the sea Palestine/Israel will be free' types. Without the removal of these extreme violence supporting factions then it is difficult to see how you arrive at peace. Many do not want, or can even stomach, the very idea of a two state solution. Madness. Absolutely no hope until you get reasonable decent people in charge of both countries and those leaders are then backed by an overwhelming majority of their compatriots.

Nothing will ever be anywhere near sorted until the Palistinians are set free from the Open air prison they are in, along with stolen land returned. It really is that simple.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I think that is a good assessment. On both sides there seems to be a very large group of 'evil cunts' who want complete victory 'from the river to the sea Palestine/Israel will be free' types. Without the removal of these extreme violence supporting factions then it is difficult to see how you arrive at peace. Many do not want, or can even stomach, the very idea of a two state solution. Madness. Absolutely no hope until you get reasonable decent people in charge of both countries and those leaders are then backed by an overwhelming majority of their compatriots.

The leaders of Israel and Palestine are nothing to do with it. Israel is nothing without the US. Hamas and Hezbollah are nothing without Iran. Those are the leaders that need to put on the big boy pants. But the US seems perpetually to need an enemy and Iran is still hell-bent on causing problems for the Great Satan.

Seems to me, peace in the Middle East comes about when the US and Iran reconcile, not Israel and the Palestinians.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

The leaders of Israel and Palestine are nothing to do with it. Israel is nothing without the US. Hamas and Hezbollah are nothing without Iran. Those are the leaders that need to put on the big boy pants. But the US seems perpetually to need an enemy and Iran is still hell-bent on causing problems for the Great Satan.

Seems to me, peace in the Middle East comes about when the US and Iran reconcile, not Israel and the Palestinians.

Iran weren't even aware of October 7th before it happened. There's a credible theory that Yahya Sinwar didn't even communicate it to the political wing of Hamas exiled in Qatar because he feared the plan would be compromised.

 

[BringBackSwales]

Can anyone explain to me how a state is allowed by all other states to destroy civilian life like the state of Israel does? The crimes committed a year ago against them were truly atrocious but that’s terrorists, how can a government kill 45,000, mainly civilians, in retaliation? How can the supposedly civilised world watch on while Gaza is destroyed and the same is happening to parts of Lebanon? Surely these atrocities are just going to lead to more hatred and more atrocities? Whatever is happening is mass murdet of civilians. Truly awful

 

[DutchSMOKE11]

Can anyone explain to me how a state is allowed by all other states to destroy civilian life like the state of Israel does? The crimes committed a year ago against them were truly atrocious but that’s terrorists, how can a government kill 45,000, mainly civilians, in retaliation? How can the supposedly civilised world watch on while Gaza is destroyed and the same is happening to parts of Lebanon? Surely these atrocities are just going to lead to more hatred and more atrocities? Whatever is happening is mass murdet of civilians. Truly awful

Protected by influence I guess. There is one side whom are influential in banking and politics.... look at AIPAC and how influiential they are.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Not to quibble with your conclusion, but I'm not "purporting" the human shield argument, that's Israel.

The deaths of large numbers of Hamas and showing their underground facilities seem to prove their point.

And if you think "a little criminality" by settlers in the West Bank is justified, that does not sound like someone who really wants a cessation of hostilities.

Not “justified,” but the lesser of the two evils when compared to using innocents as a human shield.

As I’ve made clear elsewhere, usually in the multiple gun threads, I abhor personal violence and criminality. There is far too much in this conflict, on both sides, albeit asymmetric at this point, and I want it to end.

 

[The blue phantom]

Can anyone explain to me how a state is allowed by all other states to destroy civilian life like the state of Israel does? The crimes committed a year ago against them were truly atrocious but that’s terrorists, how can a government kill 45,000, mainly civilians, in retaliation? How can the supposedly civilised world watch on while Gaza is destroyed and the same is happening to parts of Lebanon? Surely these atrocities are just going to lead to more hatred and more atrocities? Whatever is happening is mass murdet of civilians. Truly awful

As I said earlier mate the UK watch all the missiles fly into Palestine and stay on the sidelines. But when missiles start going into Israel we scramble our jets to intercept them.

Is there anything more fucked up than that?

 

[cucumberman]

IOF has bombed a church in Lebanon, with Christians inside.

Not the first time in other territories. They bombed the world’s 3rd oldest church, the St. Porphyrius, last year.

They bombed many of the churches in Gaza.

never forget December 17 that an Israeli sniper killed Nahida Anton and Samar Anton from the Holy Family Catholic church. The Antons were women, unarmed, not shielding any man let alone a Hamas militant.

Nahida and Samar were shot. In cold blood. Just two of the many Christians killed by both bombs and bullets.

 

[robbieh]

Can anyone explain to me how a state is allowed by all other states to destroy civilian life like the state of Israel does? The crimes committed a year ago against them were truly atrocious but that’s terrorists, how can a government kill 45,000, mainly civilians, in retaliation? How can the supposedly civilised world watch on while Gaza is destroyed and the same is happening to parts of Lebanon? Surely these atrocities are just going to lead to more hatred and more atrocities? Whatever is happening is mass murdet of civilians. Truly awful

It's a mystery to me.

If I had an Irish grandparent I'd get a passport. At least they've had the balls to recognize a Palestinian state.

Maybe British governments feel guilty for the Holocaust. Churchill is rumoured to have been fully aware of what was going on.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Iran weren't even aware of October 7th before it happened. There's a credible theory that Yahya Sinwar didn't even communicate it to the political wing of Hamas exiled in Qatar because he feared the plan would be compromised.

Possibly, but would it have happened without funding and weapons from Iran?

I didn't say they were directing operations in the same way I am not saying the US is directing the IDF. But the proxies are out of control and it's up to the principals to step up.

 

[robbieh]

Possibly, but would it have happened without funding and weapons from Iran?

I didn't say they were directing operations in the same way I am not saying the US is directing the IDF. But the proxies are out of control and it's up to the principals to step up.

I mentioned this before but of these two principals, only one is middle eastern. The other is thousands of miles away.

Which one is the troublemaker?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I mentioned this before but of these two principals, only one is middle eastern. The other is thousands of miles away.

Which one is the troublemaker?

Bullshit flag thrown. Again.

 

[robbieh]

Bullshit flag thrown. Again.

You obviously have a high opinion of your country, a place where in many parts of the country black people were routinely treated as second class citizens. A place where fundamentalist Christians have way to much to say for themselves. A country that massacred the native American population. A country that waged war in Vietnam, overthrew the government of Chile. I won't go on.
Forgive me if I find your narrative of world events unreliable.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

You obviously have a high opinion of your country, a place where in many parts of the country black people were routinely treated as second class citizens. A place where fundamentalist Christians have way to much to say for themselves. A country that massacred the native American population. A country that waged war in Vietnam, overthrew the government of Chile. I won't go on.
Forgive me if I find your narrative of world events unreliable.

As an U.S. immigrant raised and educated in England, and then gaining further education and multiple degrees in America, and traveling the world for a living, I feel like I have a fairly good sense of America viewed from Europe and vice versa…and the global view of both.

There are definitely stereotypical narratives, but one hopes to avoid them in a 1,600+ page forum of intelligent people with a global worldview.

However, it is amusing to sit and read about the horrors of America, whilst sitting in a country that help create the racism of which you speak, created the religious freedoms, and massacred an Empire! I won’t go on! :-)

As for the reliability of narratives of world events, please take all the time you need look around and figure it out for yourself…as we all should.

I have an opinion. You have an opinion. You besmirch my opinions because I live in America now and don’t see America as one of the bad guys in this conflict. I’ll rest on that opinion.

You seem to see things differently, but it might bolster your own argument, and my lack of reliability, by annunciating something more substantive than your distaste of the short history of the country in which I now reside and seemingly forgetting the long and “storied” history of our county of birth.

Maybe not.

 

[robbieh]

As an U.S. immigrant raised and educated in England, and then gaining further education and multiple degrees in America, and traveling the world for a living, I feel like I have a fairly good sense of America viewed from Europe and vice versa…and the global view of both.

There are definitely stereotypical narratives, but one hopes to avoid them in a 1,600+ page forum of intelligent people with a global worldview.

However, it is amusing to sit and read about the horrors of America, whilst sitting in a country that help create the racism of which you speak, created the religious freedoms, and massacred an Empire! I won’t go on! :-)

As for the reliability of narratives of world events, please take all the time you need look around and figure it out for yourself…as we all should.

I have an opinion. You have an opinion. You besmirch my opinions because I live in America now and don’t see America as one of the bad guys in this conflict. I’ll rest on that opinion.

You seem to see things differently, but it might bolster your own argument, and my lack of reliability, by annunciating something more substantive than your distaste of the short history of the country in which I now reside and seemingly forgetting the long and “storied” history of our county of birth.

Maybe not.

I was commenting on the US but am aware that Britain has a pretty brutal imperial past.

As someone who naturally empathises with underdogs,the West and I include all the other European countries, has treated Africa, the middle east and elsewhere very poorly.

 

[Blue Maverick]

It's a mystery to me.

If I had an Irish grandparent I'd get a passport. At least they've had the balls to recognize a Palestinian state.

Maybe British governments feel guilty for the Holocaust. Churchill is rumoured to have been fully aware of what was going on.

They all knew about the holocaust however the train tracks been used etc were vital when the eventual invasion of Europe by the allies happened, it’s well documented that to bomb those train tracks would’ve not been conducive to a quick victory in Europe

What the Allies Knew - The Holocaust

holocaust.com.au