Vat on Independent school fees?

[meltonblue]

I wouldn't support it, no. I think people should be encouraged to not be dependent the state, like people are encouraged to pay for their own pension.

But at least parents would not have been place in the very undesirable position. Of having to pull a child out of a school they are settled in. It's not the child's fault that Rachel Thieves is a heartless robot.

If you think people should be encouraged to not be dependent on the state, I’m not sure how that equates to liking the state giving a 20% discount on this particular service ;)

Again it’s the private schools choice themselves too, I'm not sure why the default position is the costs will all be passed on? They don’t have to be.

 

[Chippy_boy]

If you think people should be encouraged to not be dependent on the state, I’m not sure how that equates to liking the state giving a 20% discount on this particular service ;)

Again it’s the private schools choice themselves too, I'm not sure why the default position is the costs will all be passed on? They don’t have to be.

What a weird perspective you have. Reminds me of the weirdos who describe the tax relief people get on their pension contributions as being a gift from the state! (FYI, the state allowing someone to keep their own money is NOT the state giving them money!)

And so you think the state should charge VAT on school fees and the schools should just swallow it and pay it themselves for the benefit of the parents? What with schools being so loaded and the government only having a piddling £1.2 Trillion to spend every year?

Weird, just weird how twisted some peoples' perspectives are.

 

[meltonblue]

What a weird perspective you have. The state is giving a discount by NOT charging someone for something??? Bizarre

I guess you are probably one of the weirdos who describes the tax relief people get on their pension contributions as the state "giving them money"? (FYI, the state allowing someone to keep their own money is NOT the state giving them money!)

And you think the state should charge VAT on school fees and the schools should just swallow it and pay it themselves for the benefit of the parents? What with schools being so loaded and the government only having a piddling £1.2 Trillion to spend every year?

Weird, just weird how twisted some people are. Weird.

What a weird perspective I have? I’ve got the exact same core argument as Michael Gove! Thats pretty much verbatim what he said, he described it as a state discount too. Of course it’s a discount, they’re not paying VAT! Where have you got 1.2 trillion from btw? Worth reading this to see what’s happened since 2010 -

Annual report on education spending in England: 2023 | Institute for Fiscal Studies

Our sixth annual report on education spending shows changes over time across different stages of education, as well as geographic differences.

ifs.org.uk

Yes I do think private schools should try and cover the costs themselves, given the examples you’ve given yourself in this thread, I’m very surprised you don’t think that yourself. Your issue is that it might price some people out of it, why aren’t you advocating increased class sizes or for the more affluent ones to either stop their overseas expansions or reduce their profits? A lot of them have already said they’ll absorb part of the costs. I went to a Haberdashers grammar school, which wasn’t fee paying. They’ve already said they’ll absorb part of the costs for their private schools.

I find it very odd you think others are twisted on this when you’re making irrational arguments for the benefit of a tiny percentage of the populace yet not showing the same emotion for what’s already actually happened to real funding for state schools, which impacts far more people.

Somehow I can’t imagine you calling Gove weird and twisted for having the exact same perspective too, proper leftie weirdo, him….

 

[Kazzydeyna]

How dare you. You know nothing about my mate and the scarifices he’s had to make. You insulting, ignorant twat.

SOME people scrimp and save to get their kids a better education and worry sick about how they can continue to afford it and that they may have to pull them out of their school half way through. You have no fucking clue.

Not everyone is minted.

Tell your mate to either get a better job or stop scrounging off tax payers, the lazy, entitled twat.

 

[gouldybob]

What a weird perspective I have? I’ve got the exact same core argument as Michael Gove! Thats pretty much verbatim what he said, he described it as a state discount too. Of course it’s a discount, they’re not paying VAT! Where have you got 1.2 trillion from btw? Worth reading this to see what’s happened since 2010 -

Annual report on education spending in England: 2023 | Institute for Fiscal Studies

Our sixth annual report on education spending shows changes over time across different stages of education, as well as geographic differences.

ifs.org.uk

Yes I do think private schools should try and cover the costs themselves, given the examples you’ve given yourself in this thread, I’m very surprised you don’t think that yourself. Your issue is that it might price some people out of it, why aren’t you advocating increased class sizes or for the more affluent ones to either stop their overseas expansions or reduce their profits? A lot of them have already said they’ll absorb part of the costs. I went to a Haberdashers grammar school, which wasn’t fee paying. They’ve already said they’ll absorb part of the costs for their private schools.

I find it very odd you think others are twisted on this when you’re making irrational arguments for the benefit of a tiny percentage of the populace yet not showing the same emotion for what’s already actually happened to real funding for state schools, which impacts far more people.

Somehow I can’t imagine you calling Gove weird and twisted for having the exact same perspective too, proper leftie weirdo, him….

While I admit the 20% is a hit it just made me look at the things I pay for out of habit. I binned the Cup Schemes and away games this season and cancelled all the regular charitable donations, good luck to those poor animals and people with cancer, but at least I'll be about £700 up by the rest of the season.

 

[meltonblue]

While I admit the 20% is a hit it just made me look at the things I pay for out of habit. I binned the Cup Schemes and away games this season and cancelled all the regular charitable donations, good luck to those poor animals and people with cancer, but at least I'll be about £700 up by the rest of the season.

Personally I’d rather they’d done a staggered implementation as well as the schools absorbing more costs. I know for haberdashers they’re going to absorb about half of it.

 

[threespires]

Against my better judgement, Im going to reply to this.

I don't have kids. I didn't go to private school. If I had kids, I would not have sent them to one, not necessarily because I couldn't afford it, but because I am not sure I approve of it.

But that's not the point. Many of my friends have been in similar earnings bracket to me and some fretted long and hard about whether sending their child to a private school was something they could possibly afford. One friend (not the one I referred to earlier) had a son who was being repeatedly bullied at the school he was in, and my mate was deeply worried about him. Another friend of mine, his son was bering bullied and he endec up killing himself. He threw himself in front of an oncoming train, aged 13. It devastated the family who never ever got over it. Very concerned about the welfare of his son, ultimately my mate decided he would take his child out of the school he was in, and send him to a private school in the southwest. It virtually bankrupted them, but their son was finally happy. I remember my mate saying to me how broke they were all the time, and I said to "yes but what price your child's happiness", something he thanked me for saying.

These are the only two people I know who have sent their children to private schools. One I mentioned previously who had to move out of his house to pay for it, and another who was effectively bankrupted.

And yet some people on here have the downright temerity to suggest that 20% VAT on top is water off a ducks back? I am gobsmacked at both how clueless and at the same time now utterly uncompassionate and insensitive some people can be.

There are a small percentage of parents for whom their child's school is problematic for a variety of reasons and they should absolutely be supported to resolve this. But would your ire and zeal not be better directed at ensuring that state provision was sufficiently well funded to avoid putting parents in the position you describe for your friends? (I accept it's complicated because there's a strong correlation between educational inequalities and wider societal ones).

I think if your primary point is that people are being heartless in relation to people like your friends, I think they are not being dismissive of any individuals plight simply making an argument that they are atypical (which the data would support) and that in terms of hardship there are many higher priorities.

You've advocated for a small state at various points but what do you think the state should or shouldn't do? Personally I'm opposed to both two tier health and education systems partly on, for want of a better phrase, 'moral' grounds but also because they drive inequalities which imo ultimately harm the welfare of society as a whole, including it's economy. When people advocate for a smaller state I find myself asking what does that mean in practical terms? Sometimes when people answer that I find them answering in a piecemeal way that suggests to me a desire for the state to exist and intervene when it suits them, rather than any philosophical basis. Other times they state a clearer ideological position and I find myself thinking that what they describe is a theoretical model that has never worked in practice. I'm not suggesting you are positing either of those positions, I'm just curious in your case what your thoughts are?

 

[BlueHammer85]

It’s not the VAT that winds me up - I don’t even have any kids FFS. it’s the piss poor attititufe of some wankers on here who seem to think anyone on more than average wage is minted and they can be fleeced with impunity. It’s their loathing of better off people that I find so deeply offensive.

haha! but not when it comes to Nurses and Train drivers.

 

[west didsblue]

How dare you. You know nothing about my mate and the scarifices he’s had to make. You insulting, ignorant twat.

SOME people scrimp and save to get their kids a better education and worry sick about how they can continue to afford it and that they may have to pull them out of their school half way through. You have no fucking clue.

Not everyone is minted.

Maybe he should do a GoFundMe. I’m sure lots of people will be more than happy to give up their Netflix to help out the poor chap struggling to get by because the £60k school bill is going up.

 

[west didsblue]

haha! but not when it comes to Nurses and Train drivers.

Yep, the hypocrisy is stunning.

 

[stonerblue]

SEND children at private schools are 100% funded by the LA if the child has an EHCP. And nearly 100% of SEND pupils at private schools have an EHCP. Won’t cost the parents of SEND pupils one additional pence.

Come on now mate....

 

[stonerblue]

How dare you. You know nothing about my mate and the scarifices he’s had to make. You insulting, ignorant twat.

SOME people scrimp and save to get their kids a better education and worry sick about how they can continue to afford it and that they may have to pull them out of their school half way through. You have no fucking clue.

Not everyone is minted.

Some people have to scrimp and save to feed their kids or buy them a pair of school shoes.

 

[stonerblue]

Really. You utter nob.

'knob'

 

[BlueHammer85]

Yep, the hypocrisy is stunning.

he's had a mare, the constant anti labour and outrage over everything just isn't rubbing off.
No wonder he has taken a break.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

It’s not like school fees haven’t increased way ahead of inflation in recent years. The average cost of private school fees has risen by 20% in real terms since 2010, and by 55% since 2003, even without VAT.

So presumably there will have been plenty of parents who have had to remove their kids from private education over the last decade or two because of the relatively increasing cost.

Where was the outrage at that?

I’ve perhaps got a bit more insight into this particular subject than most, as my son went to private school but had to be moved to a state (boarding) school when my business failed and I went bankrupt fifteen years ago. Serendipitously, he actually benefited enormously from that move and he went from being an average student to an excellent one as a consequence.

The reality was that me and his mum could no longer afford the fees at his previous school and thanks to his mum’s ingenuity and craft she managed to find him a spot elsewhere at an exceptional state school, which he absolutely adored.

I am surrounded professionally by those that have had the benefit of a private education and there are clear advantages in terms of facilities, class sizes and the connections it provides - otherwise why pay all that money? It’s a natural human instinct to want the best for your own child, and I would never criticise anyone for that.

As I’ve said previously, I defend anyone’s right to make that choice but the benefits that education provides is by way of a professional service that people elect to pay for, in order to gain some clear advantage over other children. Much like instructing a lawyer to give you a perceived advantage in litigation. Those professional fees are subject to VAT, just are those of an accountant, and I fail to see how private education should be any different.

It will mean some children missing the cut, which is regrettable, but that is plainly the case now, by way of the foregoing increases in fees, or the cost in any event, which is completely beyond most families. There is no more tragedy in missing that cut, than the opportunities that are missing from many children’s lives every day. Life isn’t fair and never will be, but charging VAT on school fees is a very small step in making our society ever so slightly fairer overall.

Beer duty goes up, some pubs will close as a consequence. It’s a shame on an individual level, but there will always be cases of particular hardship when it comes to the implementation broad taxation policy. This is no different.

 

[johnnytapia]

It’s not like school fees haven’t increased way ahead of inflation in recent years. The average cost of private school fees has risen by 20% in real terms since 2010, and by 55% since 2003, even without VAT.

So presumably there will have been plenty of parents who have had to remove their kids from private education over the last decade or two because of the relatively increasing cost.

Where was the outrage at that?

I’ve perhaps got a bit more insight into this particular subject than most, as my son went to private school but had to be moved to a state (boarding) school when my business failed and I went bankrupt fifteen years ago. Serendipitously, he actually benefited enormously from that move and he went from being an average student to an excellent one as a consequence.

The reality was that me and his mum could no longer afford the fees at his previous school and thanks to his mum’s ingenuity and craft she managed to find him a spot elsewhere at an exceptional state school, which he absolutely adored.

I am surrounded professionally by those that have had the benefit of a private education and there are clear advantages in terms of facilities, class sizes and the connections it provides - otherwise why pay all that money? It’s a natural human instinct to want the best for your own child, and I would never criticise anyone for that.

As I’ve said previously, I defend anyone’s right to make that choice but the benefits that education provides is by way of a professional service that people elect to pay for, in order to gain some clear advantage over other children. Much like instructing a lawyer to give you a perceived advantage in litigation. Those professional fees are subject to VAT, just are those of an accountant, and I fail to see how private education should be any different.

It will mean some children missing the cut, which is regrettable, but that is plainly the case now, by way of the foregoing increases in fees, or the cost in any event, which is completely beyond most families. There is no more tragedy in missing that cut, than the opportunities that are missing from many children’s lives every day. Life isn’t fair and never will be, but charging VAT on school fees is a very small step in making our society ever so slightly fairer overall.

Beer duty goes up, some pubs will close as a consequence. It’s a shame on an individual level, but there will always be cases of particular hardship when it comes to the implementation broad taxation policy. This is no different.

There endeth the debate.

 

[meltonblue]

I am surrounded professionally by those that have had the benefit of a private education and there are clear advantages in terms of facilities, class sizes and the connections it provides - otherwise why pay all that money? It’s a natural human instinct to want the best for your own child, and I would never criticise anyone for that.

I am too as well as most of my secondary school being privately educated at primary. My experiences made me actively choose not to send my kids privately. There’s absolutely benefits but there’s a fair amount of negatives too. I don’t begrudge people making either decision.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I am too as well as most of my secondary school being privately educated at primary. My experiences made me actively choose not to send my kids privately. There’s absolutely benefits but there’s a fair amount of negatives too. I don’t begrudge people making either decision.

Yes, I think the significance on the positives and negatives depends on the kid, their personal characteristics and qualities, and of course the particular school. I think a good comprehensive education is as good as a standard private one, but there are huge disparities within the state sector.

 

[meltonblue]

Yes, I think the significance on the positives and negatives depends on the kid, their personal characteristics and qualities, and of course the particular school. I think a good comprehensive education is as good as a standard private one, but there are huge disparities within the state sector.

Completely agree and I don’t think people should underestimate the importance of the emotional and social growth of a child as part of that overall education.

The other aspect is what people want it to lead to. A lot where I went were privately educated in order to try and get into the grammar school. When it got to the 11 plus, the private school effectively did tutoring to ensure the pupils could pass it. As soon as they got to the grammar school, plenty couldn’t cope as they’d essentially fudged the academic attainment part of it and ended up not getting decent qualifications as as soon as you were left behind in a subject, that was it.

They’d have been much better off either remaining in private or switching to the state.

 

[metalblue]

It’s not like school fees haven’t increased way ahead of inflation in recent years. The average cost of private school fees has risen by 20% in real terms since 2010, and by 55% since 2003, even without VAT.

So presumably there will have been plenty of parents who have had to remove their kids from private education over the last decade or two because of the relatively increasing cost.

Where was the outrage at that?

I’ve perhaps got a bit more insight into this particular subject than most, as my son went to private school but had to be moved to a state (boarding) school when my business failed and I went bankrupt fifteen years ago. Serendipitously, he actually benefited enormously from that move and he went from being an average student to an excellent one as a consequence.

The reality was that me and his mum could no longer afford the fees at his previous school and thanks to his mum’s ingenuity and craft she managed to find him a spot elsewhere at an exceptional state school, which he absolutely adored.

I am surrounded professionally by those that have had the benefit of a private education and there are clear advantages in terms of facilities, class sizes and the connections it provides - otherwise why pay all that money? It’s a natural human instinct to want the best for your own child, and I would never criticise anyone for that.

As I’ve said previously, I defend anyone’s right to make that choice but the benefits that education provides is by way of a professional service that people elect to pay for, in order to gain some clear advantage over other children. Much like instructing a lawyer to give you a perceived advantage in litigation. Those professional fees are subject to VAT, just are those of an accountant, and I fail to see how private education should be any different.

It will mean some children missing the cut, which is regrettable, but that is plainly the case now, by way of the foregoing increases in fees, or the cost in any event, which is completely beyond most families. There is no more tragedy in missing that cut, than the opportunities that are missing from many children’s lives every day. Life isn’t fair and never will be, but charging VAT on school fees is a very small step in making our society ever so slightly fairer overall.

Beer duty goes up, some pubs will close as a consequence. It’s a shame on an individual level, but there will always be cases of particular hardship when it comes to the implementation broad taxation policy. This is no different.

I just don’t see how VAT passes the ECHR plurality of choice test.

Explicitly impairing the existence of private schools is incompatible with article 2. The only argument I see that needs to be won by the private schools is VAT may cause schools to close.

I suppose Labour could a) withdraw us from the ECHR to get it through or b) lose the case with good grace and a few words about how we tried dear comrades. I’m inclined to think (b) was their plan all along.