Wolves (A) | PL | Post-Match Thread

Matt Diablo said:
The linesman was an idiot as your can't be offside from a corner! It's all alot of BS
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But you can be offside once a team mate has played the ball after the corner, which is what the linesman flagged for. Wrongly, as Bernie wasn’t interfering with play
 
oldius said:
It is the hope that kills you, and Arsenal and Liverpool are utterly desperate for ANY loss of points from us because they know that if we are there-or-thereabouts post Christmas, without Rodri, DeBruyne, Bobb, and others, they have a job on their hands. All of the bleating is simply lost hope, a hope massaged by news media that only has an interest for views, clicks and likes. They get more of that from red-shirted rivals seething with desperation and frustration.

At the moment, points however they come should be our only interest - we have lost two absolute worldies from our squad, and a young talent oozing with creativity. We are trying to open up teams whose only objective is to stop us scoring, and to try and hit the occasional break or set-piece. Any team with 11 behind the ball is tough to break down, and we face that week in and week out. Our style of play has encouraged that because we dominate the ball. Football always develops solutions and teams have developed the deep defence, rapid counter to cope with the way we play. Wolves did that, and gave rivals a hope that they did not expect. They are now squealing because we killed that hope.
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Teams sit back because we are relatively easy to defend against. We allow their team to get back the occasional time they venture forwards and lose the ball. Our slow and boring build up is on us, not on how teams set up and I am surprised, especially with our current wingers, how we don't break, quickly, directly and with a purpose. That second half was an example of a team with zero ideas on how to break down a side happy to defend. You would think we would be working different ways and styles out rather than pass it to death sideways hoping to find the smallest gap to create something. If teas get joy from defending then it is on us to combat that, we just about muddle through but I hope the best manager in the world finds a better way than the same rinse and repeat.
 
shemnel said:
I'm not sure that's true is it? He is only in an offside position once the ball is touched by a City player, not purely due to the swing of the ball going behind him? he is in a state awaiting to be called. Schrodingers Bernie.

(think of a player unmarked on the back post at a corner, receiving a big loopy in-swinging corner that goes further out from the goal line than him and back onto his head - you would never ever see that called offside, because offside is determined at the moment of contact with the ball by your teammate, not by the flight of the ball itself).
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You can't be offside from a corner. If offside did apply from corners and the ball was positioned on the outside of the arc, away from the goal line there would be the potential to be ahead of the ball and offside, so it's removed from a corner kick. You only become offside once contact is made. Bernardo was offside when Stonesy headered the ball, but wasn't interfering with play.

The Wolves disallowed goal against West Ham, that O'Neil referenced was completely different. There was a Wolves player stood right in front of the West Ham keeper blocking the view of the ball and not allowing him to react to it.

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thismeansfour said:
Teams sit back because we are relatively easy to defend against. We allow their team to get back the occasional time they venture forwards and lose the ball. Our slow and boring build up is on us, not on how teams set up and I am surprised, especially with our current wingers, how we don't break, quickly, directly and with a purpose. That second half was an example of a team with zero ideas on how to break down a side happy to defend. You would think we would be working different ways and styles out rather than pass it to death sideways hoping to find the smallest gap to create something. If teas get joy from defending then it is on us to combat that, we just about muddle through but I hope the best manager in the world finds a better way than the same rinse and repeat.
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He has found a way, and it's why we have broken all records.
 
supercity88 said:
You can't be offside from a corner. If offside did apply from corners and the ball was positioned on the outside of the arc, away from the goal line there would be the potential to be ahead of the ball and offside, so it's removed from a corner kick. You only become offside once contact is made. Bernardo was offside when Stonesy headered the ball, but wasn't interfering with play.

The Wolves disallowed goal against West Ham, that O'Neil referenced was completely different. There was a Wolves player stood right in front of the West Ham keeper blocking the view of the ball and not allowing him to react to it.

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yes i know you cant be offside from a corner, thanks though. I was replying to someone who suggested Bernie was offside once the ball was further away from the goal than him, in the air. which can't be right.

you cannot be offside from a corner, i know.
 
I think the officials did every thing correct. The linesman won't have know if Bernie was interfering with the keeper out not, just that Bernie was off side as soon as Stones headed it.
The ref perhaps should have seen Bernie wasn't interfering.
VAR realised that the ref had made a clear and obvious error. VAR called the ref to the screen.
The ref reviewed it and realised he had made a mistake and gave the goal.

VAR worked perfectly well.
 
supercity88 said:
That's the critical point for me. There's so much talk about the decision, the BBC even have a video which asks if the Wolves players took too long to contest the decision.

For 30 seconds they're largely on the floor or with heads in hands because they've conceded. The keeper hasn't jumped up and started kicking off about Bernardo blocking him or being in his eyeline. When Arsenal scored their first against us, there was an immediate reaction because of Walker being called out of position. When they scored from the corner we protested because of the pushing and obstructing that had occurred.

The Wolves players weren't bothered, because they didn't have an issue. When they saw the flag raised, that's where they got excited. That's what O'Neil saw and got all excited about as well. VAR obviously reviewed it and felt the ref should have a look, and the ref didn't believe Bernardo was affecting play. And he wasn't. I reckon if they showed every corner or set piece from the weekend you'd see far worse than that incident in the majority. The only reason it "stands out" is because it was initially ruled out for offside - the linesman just seeing Bernardo as offside with no context of where he was in relation to the keeper, and because it is one player with the keeper. Usually there are about 3 around the keeper so it's harder to identify what is going on.
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Also, he was wrong to flag even if he thought Bernie was off. It was going to be checked anyway, as it was a goal and all goals are checked.
One of the many inconsistencies still going on is the linesman flagging for offside or not when a player is chasing a ball from an offside position. Some don't flag but some do.
 
shemnel said:
I'm not sure that's true is it? He is only in an offside position once the ball is touched by a City player, not purely due to the swing of the ball going behind him? he is in a state awaiting to be called. Schrodingers Bernie.

(think of a player unmarked on the back post at a corner, receiving a big loopy in-swinging corner that goes further out from the goal line than him and back onto his head - you would never ever see that called offside, because offside is determined at the moment of contact with the ball by your teammate, not by the flight of the ball itself).
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You can't be offside from a corner (or goal kick or throw-in). But you can be in an offside position even when the ball isn't in play, e.g. waiting for a free kick to be floated into the PA. If in that position when the ball is played, you can't interfere with play or with an opponent.
 
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thismeansfour said:
Teams sit back because we are relatively easy to defend against. We allow their team to get back the occasional time they venture forwards and lose the ball. Our slow and boring build up is on us, not on how teams set up and I am surprised, especially with our current wingers, how we don't break, quickly, directly and with a purpose. That second half was an example of a team with zero ideas on how to break down a side happy to defend. You would think we would be working different ways and styles out rather than pass it to death sideways hoping to find the smallest gap to create something. If teas get joy from defending then it is on us to combat that, we just about muddle through but I hope the best manager in the world finds a better way than the same rinse and repeat.
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I think this is why I’d experiment with josko playing the rodders role when ake comes back. He’s got a good shot on him which is what we need from outside the box. We are missing KDB to mix up our play to be fair. Those daisy cutting passes like the one wolves scored from have been missed.
 
Vital three points - attacking tempo was good in the first half but seemed to stutter in the second half with the changes.

Made good use of underlapping opportunities. Any team now adopting the 541/532 defensive shape against us are going to be incredibly hard to break down, especially as we're still not completely up to speed with attacking play & players adapting to new roles.

One note is Wolves would look to force play wide and collapse on the ball in numbers. Particularly a clear doubling up on the winger. Gomes overdid this on the Gvardiol goal (basically created a two man wall against Doku) and left him the space to shift the ball for a shot - worth keeping an eye on if we can exploit this more often.


We really, really need to stop conceding cheap goals. It's going to hurt us and has been a common theme from the start of last season. Rico never got back in goal side of Larsen and the goal stems back to a stupid header from Dias, he had an age to bring the ball down. It's simply not sustainable to keep going behind or win games 2-1 & 3-2 etc.

I sometimes feel with the run of success that turning up to these games fully on it must be difficult, but it remains hugely frustrating all the same.


Brilliant use of the higher bar for contact with the goalkeeper on the corner to pin him to the goal line. This is one of the fundamentals behind Arsenal's corner success, if you can pin the keeper into the goal line, then a ball along the six yard line is simple to convert.

It's more nuanced in terms of screening defenders etc, but pinning the keeper is key. We tried this last season by putting the ball closer to the goal (Ake away at Spurs in the FA Cup), but the six yard line definitely works best.
 
Victorinodennistua said:
I think this is why I’d experiment with josko playing the rodders role when ake comes back. He’s got a good shot on him which is what we need from outside the box. We are missing KDB to mix up our play to be fair. Those daisy cutting passes like the one wolves scored from have been missed.
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That is the confusion with leaving Foden out, he can be that playmaker, a midfield three of Bernardo Kovacic and Gundog isn't littered with creativity.

oldius said:
He has found a way, and it's why we have broken all records.
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Well a lot of records broken have been playing a better, more exiting way some would argue. Us winning on Sunday will be us finding a way, I would argue it was poor we needed to score in the 95th minute against the worst team in the league currently. Interestingly it was from a corner and a different approach in the sense of ball in and on someones head. Points on the board is all that matters currently, but I would say falling behind more often than not and scraping single goal wins isn't sustainable.
 
shemnel said:
yes i know you cant be offside from a corner, thanks though. I was replying to someone who suggested Bernie was offside once the ball was further away from the goal than him, in the air. which can't be right.
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Not offside. In an offside position.
 
thismeansfour said:
That is the confusion with leaving Foden out, he can be that playmaker, a midfield three of Bernardo Kovacic and Gundog isn't littered with creativity.


Well a lot of records broken have been playing a better, more exiting way some would argue. Us winning on Sunday will be us finding a way, I would argue it was poor we needed to score in the 95th minute against the worst team in the league currently. Interestingly it was from a corner and a different approach in the sense of ball in and on someones head. Points on the board is all that matters currently, but I would say falling behind more often than not and scraping single goal wins isn't sustainable.
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I think it is far too early to say. In fact, in several seasons at this point, this forum has been littered with complaints about form. At the moment, the loss of Rodri, DeBruyne, and Bobb has to be factored in. Each has a big impact on the creativity of the team: two world-class internationals, and a prospect who was on fire pre-season. When you add in two international breaks and the injury and illness of Foden, we are in a good position.
 
mcfcbill91 said:
We really, really need to stop conceding cheap goals. It's going to hurt us and has been a common theme from the start of last season. Rico never got back in goal side of Larsen and the goal stems back to a stupid header from Dias, he had an age to bring the ball down. It's simply not sustainable to keep going behind or win games 2-1 & 3-2 etc.
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Just got round to seeing the Wolves goal (yeah, I know, forgive me, kind of 100 years late onto the scene). Watched it several times, freezing it at different points. Several things about that goal.
First things first. Render unto Caesar. Semedo's (?) ball in is brilliant. It truly made me feel nostalgic for De Bruyne, when he used to do that regularly (he can still do it, but it's from time to time now). You've got to give credit where it's due. You'd think a team at the bottom of the league would not produce a ball like that. Just shows.
But. But here's the thing. When the move gets going, Gvardiol's reaction is particularly striking. He knows he's not going to be able to get right over to block it, right from the start. I think that's fair enough. There's just too much distance. The best he can do is move towards Semedo, hopefully to put him off and force him into making a short pass back and inside. But as he makes his way towards the winger, he glances over to his left, to see how the line behind him is set up, and my distinct impression is that he can already see that there is a problem. Johnny — sorry Eccles — but he is not covering anyone in particular: he is caught in no man's land between two Wolves players, not bringing pressure to bear on either of them, but making it look as though he might be able to cover Larsen, which possibly deceives Rico. Now this is not to exculpate Rico completely. Rico dawdles in setting off after Larsen, right at the start, and never manages to make up the ground. He does not have Kyle's speed, and sorry, he never will have (not that Kyle has Kyle's speed, these days). Love the lad, he's got tons of other abilities, but he simply does not have that rapidity. Usually, he gets away with it, because his anticipatory reading of the game is so good that he rarely leaves himself high and dry. But here's the interesting thing: freeze it, and you'll see that at the very start of the action, Rico is actually looking over into midfield, at a deeper lying Wolves player moving forward behind the first line of his attacking team mates, clearly wondering whether he should go to cover him, because nobody else seems to have clocked the danger there at all. He's not even looking at Larsen's back initially. I suppose what I'm saying is that I suspect Rico's thinking like a midfielder (which he actually is) while also trying to think like a right back. I think, finally, that it's a bit unfair on the lad. It certainly isn't Kyle's problem, and it never has been! I think if anyone impresses me in that back line at that point it's Josko. The guy's awareness is just brilliant. He can't actually do anything about it at that point, but he sees what's coming — if the ball in is good. Which, unfortunately for us, it is. I've been hugely impressed with Gvardiol since the end of last season. A big player, for years to come.
I think, in a general sense, the defence is not quite as cohesive as it should be. It's not just about Rod not being there.

Anyhow, three points, reasonably happy days. The result's good anyway. Onwards…
 
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thismeansfour said:
Teams sit back because we are relatively easy to defend against. We allow their team to get back the occasional time they venture forwards and lose the ball. Our slow and boring build up is on us, not on how teams set up and I am surprised, especially with our current wingers, how we don't break, quickly, directly and with a purpose. That second half was an example of a team with zero ideas on how to break down a side happy to defend. You would think we would be working different ways and styles out rather than pass it to death sideways hoping to find the smallest gap to create something. If teas get joy from defending then it is on us to combat that, we just about muddle through but I hope the best manager in the world finds a better way than the same rinse and repeat.
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Wow
 
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