US Presidential Election, Nov 5th 2024

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ChicagoBlue said:
From Jon Meachem, albeit not his own work:

“Americans do the right thing only once we have exhausted every other possibility.”

America does nothing until it’s a crisis. Let’s see how long after Jan 20 (if it takes that long) before we have one. Then, let’s see if Trump is capable of “doing the right thing!”
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Bets on the first Government shutdown?
 
Spent my last 24 hours reading as much opinion as possible to see what others think, and where they think the train derailed.

There are 3 MASSIVE takeaways:

1) Merrick Garland allowed Trump this time and space, when he should have moved less glacially to indict him. Now, just as sentencing and lawsuits are coming to fruition, it has all been for nought, with the exception of giving Trump a bludgeon with which to beat the establishment and the media that covered the historic events.

2) Biden should never have run and should have held true to his initial intent, and those closest to him, who saw the decay firsthand, did the country a disservice.

3) Harris tried an “opposites” campaign, where she was the opposite of Trump, the antidote to Trump, and the slayer of dragons. Unfortunately, the country wanted to hear strength, economic fixes, and change. She failed to give them what they wanted, even though it was well within her grasp, as Trump lies that every day was going to be Cake and Ice Cream under him, as long as you were a real American…whatever that means!
 
bugsyblue said:
Starmer has tweeted today about the need to halt the boats and people smuggling. I think labour are aware of the issue.
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And that's great, but the proof will be in the pudding. The Tories spent 10 years telling everybody they were strong on immigration but in the end they weren't and they did nothing.

The policies that remain in force today are costing us billions per year so should we not expect some urgency? Maybe at least the same kind of urgency that Labour have managed to find to rapidly impose new taxes to claw back other billions?

It's an urgent conversation, it has happened in the US and the result of policy vacuum is they've put a lunatic in charge.
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
In 2022, undocumented migrants contributed an estimated $8.9BILLION for every million undocumented migrant to the US economy. And who do you think picks all that fruit and veg that people like to buy cheaply from their local supermarket? I'll give you a clue, it isn't those young first-time voters who stuck an X in the box for Trump this time round.

(Not having a go at you by the way; just having a vent at the stupidity of the US electorate as a whole)

itep.org

Tax Payments by Undocumented Immigrants

Undocumented immigrants paid $96.7 billion in federal, state, and local taxes in 2022. Providing access to work authorization for undocumented immigrants would increase their tax contributions both because their wages would rise and because their rates of tax compliance would increase.
itep.org itep.org
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This is just a silly argument. You're arguing for the economic benefits of turning a blind eye to an illegal and suppressed demographic who actually has no rights.

This is like arguing to turn a blind eye to illegal child/underage workers because it's economically beneficial.

The correct answer is that people should immigrate legally and we should measure the economic benefits of that.
 
Another point I hope people make note off - don’t rely on and get all giddy about polls, they were all completely well off the mark and have shown up alot of people.
The betting market was a far better reflection.
Polls have a long history of being very wrong.
 
inbetween said:
This is just a silly argument. You're arguing for the economic benefits of turning a blind eye to an illegal and suppressed demographic who actually has no rights.

This is like arguing to turn a blind eye to illegal child/underage workers because it's economically beneficial.

The correct answer is that people should immigrate legally and we should measure the economic benefits of that.
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I think he's arguing that the political establishment consider the economical benefits outweigh the problems, despite what either side say in public. Hence why you never really see a reduction in immigration. If the UK cracks down on illegal immigration they will absolutely have to make visa claims and legal process way cheaper because it's only really the upper levels of the working and middle classes that can afford it now.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Another point I hope people make note off - don’t rely on and get all giddy about polls, they were all completely well off the mark and have shown up alot of people.
The betting market was a far better reflection.
Polls have a long history of being very wrong.
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I still don't understand how they were so wide of the mark.
 
bugsyblue said:
I think he's arguing that the political establishment consider the economical benefits outweigh the problems, despite what either side say in public. Hence why you never really see a reduction in immigration. If the UK cracks down on illegal immigration they will absolutely have to make visa claims and legal process way cheaper because it's only really the upper levels of the working and middle classes that can afford it now.
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Illegal migration into the UK is actually a bit different because most of 'illegal' migration into the UK actually ends up being legal because the people who do come on the boats for example are coming to claim asylum. There is an argument for safe routes but that would be problematic and no such thing exists anywhere in the world, not even in Europe where just like the Channel hundreds have drowned in the Meditteranean.

In the US it's very different, the people coming over the Mexican border are not claiming asylum, they're entering to live and work in the US illegally. Illegal immigration is what Trump intends to target and legal migration will broadly remain the same albeit he'll probably stop the green card lottery and maybe tighten the rules on family visas.

In the context of racism or fascism and Trump, this type of border control and immigration policy can't possibly be racist or fascist and I don't even see why it is controversial. A second point is if the US actually was a racist/fascist place then why on earth would anybody of those races want to emigrate there?
 
BlueHammer85 said:
No idea, presume alot of it is just guesswork, they got it wrong for the 2016 vote, Brexit and many others.
Just hope some can avoid bombarding us with polls in future. They’re a load of shite.
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I can understand with Brexit or even the previous US election where it was pretty neck and neck, but they were so far out it's like no effort was made.
 
inbetween said:
Illegal migration into the UK is actually a bit different because most of 'illegal' migration into the UK actually ends up being legal because the people who do come on the boats for example are coming to claim asylum. There is an argument for safe routes but that would be problematic and no such thing exists anywhere in the world, not even in Europe where just like the Channel hundreds have drowned in the Meditteranean.

In the US it's very different, the people coming over the Mexican border are not claiming asylum, they're entering to live and work in the US illegally. Illegal immigration is what Trump intends to target and legal migration will broadly remain the same albeit he'll probably stop the green card lottery and maybe tighten the rules on family visas.

In the context of racism or fascism and Trump, this type of border control and immigration policy can't possibly be racist or fascist and I don't even see why it is controversial. A second point is if the US actually was a racist/fascist place then why on earth would anybody of those races want to emigrate there?
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Well I agree with you that uncontrolled borders is crazy and undocumented migrants is mad as it simply allows exploitation of those poor folk as well as harder to track, arrest when crimes have been committed, and of course tax said individuals. I agree that's not a racist policy.

But people in Mexico or Venezuela will accept racism over starvation, poverty or violence. It's the lesser of evils.
 
inbetween said:
This is just a silly argument. You're arguing for the economic benefits of turning a blind eye to an illegal and suppressed demographic who actually has no rights.

This is like arguing to turn a blind eye to illegal child/underage workers because it's economically beneficial.

The correct answer is that people should immigrate legally and we should measure the economic benefits of that.
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Or turning a blind eye to electing a self-confessed pussy grabbing adjudicated rapist and convicted felon?

The 'boogieman' argument on undocumented migrants pails into insignificance compared to the guy who has just been elected POTUS.
 
bugsyblue said:
Rogan's been pretty open about his disillusionment with the Democratic Party. But that's like a number of people! Musk used to be a democrat. Plus millions of Americans by the look of the latest vote count.

Whilst I would have voted for Harris (if I was a US citizen) I actually don't think criticising people for turning and voting for the other party is healthy nor productive. The question you want to be asking is why? Politics should never be treated like a football team IMO, where you nail your support to the team and live and die by that decision, enjoying the highs and lows. And us city fans can relate to that more than anyone! But in politics I'd argue it's actually important at times to switch as policies and needs and the environment all fluctuate.

The bitter pill to swallow is that people have switched to a party led by a pretty abhorrent individual. I get that. But we still need to ask and figure out why otherwise we'll just remain polarised and angry.
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Oy very!!! My God! I never thought I'd see it. You Sir or Madam are more unique than you realize.


My hat.... permanently doffed!
 
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