PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

I don't disagree, but at the same time there's another legal team who believe there's merit in the PL's case, unless they are ignoring counsel's advice.
Could there be a case that the PL don't see much merit, but want to at least be seen to have taken us to task. If they lose, then so be it, they can claim to have done their utmost and let public opinion still deem we 'wangled it' somehow.

With the APT ruling we won a very significant argument regarding loans, but we didn't win every point. Some of the subjective beliefs about Middle Eastern ownership were not deemed to be valid.

It would be a wonderful outcome if not a single allegation can be substantiated. It would be a perfect outcome if we could disprove each allegation. However, I think it's fairly reasonable to wonder what the other side is coming at us with and if the panel may interpret some things negatively.
The hurried and erroneous manner in which the charges were initially published leads me to believe they were brought forward in haste. The PL must have been under pressure from within and/or without. Hopefully, that's reflected in their case, but I'm still anticipating they'll get something to stick. The old 'throw enough mud' approach. It's worked with the general public and no panel is entirely infallible.
The point I was making is that the PL has to bring forward evidence that not only casts doubt on CAS's findings but undermines them to the point that reasonable, impartial observers would consider that on the balance of probabilities City were guilty of the most serious charges. Indeed the PL may have to meet a higher level of proof. Whay you seemed to be saying was that the PL might ascribe more dubious motives to City's dealings than the club -but that is a contention which has to be supported by cogent or compelling evidence. Otherwise it is just another conspiracy theory.
 
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The PL wouldn't have acted against their lawyers advice - no chance. Of course the PL had the option (and in fact obligation) to terminate a hopeless case. Like it or not, the PL believe they have good grounds for their charges and some prospects at the hearing - lets not be silly. By February 2023, it is very likely the PL had seen what City believed to be their compelling defence evidence - the PL's lawyers must have believed it did not fully answer the allegations. The PL may well have known the case had some weaknesses but I don't believe the PL thought it was in any way hopeless.

The PL had to investigate after CAS because they reacted to complaints from clubs to do so - I am told the PL is duty bound to investigate if parties complain. But they did not need to bring a charge nor frame it as "115" - that was a poor and naive PR choice.

There is no way City were genuinely pleased to "draw a line" by having a drawn out, multi year process and 12 week initial hearing. I am sure, in fact, it has been a nightmare for the executive side of the club to have this running for years and years both in cost and reputational damage.

And I also disagree with this separation from Soriano - he is the CEO - it is absolutely not above his pay grade.

Stefan what makes you say the PL wouldn’t act against their lawyers advice when we’ve seen then them act against their advice on other occasions.
 
The PL wouldn't have acted against their lawyers advice - no chance. Of course the PL had the option (and in fact obligation) to terminate a hopeless case. Like it or not, the PL believe they have good grounds for their charges and some prospects at the hearing - lets not be silly. By February 2023, it is very likely the PL had seen what City believed to be their compelling defence evidence - the PL's lawyers must have believed it did not fully answer the allegations. The PL may well have known the case had some weaknesses but I don't believe the PL thought it was in any way hopeless.

The PL had to investigate after CAS because they reacted to complaints from clubs to do so - I am told the PL is duty bound to investigate if parties complain. But they did not need to bring a charge nor frame it as "115" - that was a poor and naive PR choice.

There is no way City were genuinely pleased to "draw a line" by having a drawn out, multi year process and 12 week initial hearing. I am sure, in fact, it has been a nightmare for the executive side of the club to have this running for years and years both in cost and reputational damage.

And I also disagree with this separation from Soriano - he is the CEO - it is absolutely not above his pay grade.

To be clear on what you are saying because I think I must misunderstand it.

You are saying the PL would have been given access to the club's compelling or "irrefutable" evidence before February 2023? I would imagine the most compelling elements of counter-evidence are the witness statements from Mansour, Khaldoon, Pearce and various sponsor executives as well as accounting analysis from the books of ADUG and Etihad, as at CAS. Surely you don't mean that the PL has had access to all that before they referred their allegations to the disciplinary process?

If they had, then my point is, indeed, silly and I'll hold my hands up in that case.

Your other points I can address later, once I understand your position better.
 
Isn’t it possible that the Premier League faced (faces) an existential threat which clouded their judgement? In their opinion (based on them seeking approval from Rags and Dippers for senior appointments) they are nothing without the old top 4. If they didn’t bring the charges maybe some Premier League clubs were threatening to leave? Perhaps they felt compelled to bring the action otherwise, no Premier League. In this situation maybe they did go against legal advice.

Btw Keith Moon liked your post. Go and get fucking showered.
They can be under pressure etc but nobody goes with a case like this where the advice is that the case is weak. Because in the end, in such a case, they are very likely to lose and that has consequences in itself. So I really don’t see it. This should be distinguished from the PR and the breadth of the charges where there is a tactical decision in play.
 
Isn’t it possible that the Premier League faced (faces) an existential threat which clouded their judgement? In their opinion (based on them seeking approval from Rags and Dippers for senior appointments) they are nothing without the old top 4. If they didn’t bring the charges maybe some Premier League clubs were threatening to leave? Perhaps they felt compelled to bring the action otherwise, no Premier League. In this situation maybe they did go against legal advice.

Btw Keith Moon liked your post. Go and get fucking showered.
Surely our assumed guilt had some part to play in the PL decision ? If the case was dropped then the damage or perceived damage would be great as would the the damage from perhaps people thinking they could get away with stuff.

Having said that I think if that is true the Premier League messed up here.

If we are innocent they look really incompetent. They have driven directly or indirectly the they must have done something wrong.

If we have indeed done something wrong according to the panel then appeals and claims for damages plus the questions of how did we get away with it for so long will do so much damage to the Premier League

I think the Premier League bosses are surprisingly insular. I suspect they think that what’s said on RAWk and Rag Cafe by fans in Surey etc is indicative of the wider PL audience in India etc i.e the cheating xxxxxx I bet fans of all clubs in the Premier League don’t know much about any of this and don’t much care.

I wonder if the League ever really got the chance to drop it.

It wanted to do its own investigation and complete it after CAS only had half a picture maybe like with UEFA eel held stuff back for the panel only. Perhaps they knew they where on shaky ground but had to carry on perhaps it was part of the plan to damage the PL management the red cartel and bringing proper regs
 
To be clear on what you are saying because I think I must misunderstand it.

You are saying the PL would have been given access to the club's compelling or "irrefutable" evidence before February 2023? I would imagine the most compelling elements of counter-evidence are the witness statements from Mansour, Khaldoon, Pearce and various sponsor executives as well as accounting analysis from the books of ADUG and Etihad, as at CAS. Surely you don't mean that the PL has had access to all that before they referred their allegations to the disciplinary process?

If they had, then my point is, indeed, silly and I'll hold my hands up in that case.

Your other points I can address later, once I understand your position better.
Before Feb 2023, the PL had at least the gist of the unequivocal witness evidence at CAS. It is near certain that in correspondence City would have set out its case firmly as to why the PL should not proceed to charge. This would have included annexures of key documents from the documents disclosed in the investigation phase. I suspect City also shared the CAS expert evidence and the CAS witness statements.

There is no way the PL charged blindly without extensive pre-issue correspondence. Of course, over time the parties refine their case and the parties see that in the openings, the trial itself and then in closings. But the “charging decision” would obviously not be taken in a vacuum.

But even if you are right, if the picture changes during a formal disclosure/pre-hearing process such that the evidence no longer supports the claimants case, they’d be crazy to ignore the advice and plough on regardless. Like it or not, the PL will have gone into the hearing believing they would prove their case.
 
Hi @slbsn - I may have missed it, but if you're willing and able to, could you elaborate on that 'soft signal' of positivity.

We may as well start the morning with a hint of good news, today is one of those now dreaded things known to other fans as 'match days'...

Etihad Airway are heading for annual record profits, which adds strength to our other 'issue' with the PL re APTs and renewal of the sponsorship

No just another one for the list - can’t be specific on that one
 
Sounds a bit worrying & few positives here Stefan. We must also have great belief to take it this far - what are our main definite “wins”
I don’t see the point in living in a delusion that the PL have just pursued a case to the ends of the earth that they know they will lose and spent 10s of millions doing that. It’s simply not realistic. They obviously think they have a belief they can win before the hearing. Now it’s complete, that is much less clear because it May now be obvious they failed - in fact City’s confidence is that
 
Before Feb 2023, the PL had at least the gist of the unequivocal witness evidence at CAS. It is near certain that in correspondence City would have set out its case firmly as to why the PL should not proceed to charge. This would have included annexures of key documents from the documents disclosed in the investigation phase. I suspect City also shared the CAS expert evidence and the CAS witness statements.

There is no way the PL charged blindly without extensive pre-issue correspondence. Of course, over time the parties refine their case and the parties see that in the openings, the trial itself and then in closings. But the “charging decision” would obviously not be taken in a vacuum.

But even if you are right, if the picture changes during a formal disclosure/pre-hearing process such that the evidence no longer supports the claimants case, they’d be crazy to ignore the advice and plough on regardless. Like it or not, the PL will have gone into the hearing believing they would prove their case.
Rightly or wrongly I always take your posts as highly likely to be correct. A piece of this complex puzzles framework if you like.
And whilst I have no reason to disagree with this assessment, the PL aren’t infallible. The Leicester case being the prime example. The PL presumably had legal advice there too.
All I’m saying is I think it entirely feasible that the PL case could include some cock ups albeit of a different nature.
At least I hope so.
 
We haven’t and never in the context of claim of this type

The APT case showed they ignored their own lawyers, of course it’s not a claim of this type but they ignored it all the same.

I’d expect them to be told the case was arguable but it’s not 50/50 is it?
 
Rightly or wrongly I always take your posts as highly likely to be correct. A piece of this complex puzzles framework if you like.
And whilst I have no reason to disagree with this assessment, the PL aren’t infallible. The Leicester case being the prime example. The PL presumably had legal advice there too.
All I’m saying is I think it entirely feasible that the PL case could include some cock ups albeit of a different nature.
At least I hope so.
Thanks. But the Leicester case is not a good example. The lawyer’s advice in that case was that the PL were correct but they lost - the advice was not that they would lose but they carried on regardless. In fact, on Leicester, the PL were amazed they lost given the advice.

Of course, the whole City case could be a huge cock up or a purely vindictive pursuit of a case the PL knew with near certainty they would lose. But, take a step back - that is obviously very unlikely.
 
The APT case showed they ignored their own lawyers, of course it’s not a claim of this type but they ignored it all the same.

I’d expect them to be told the case was arguable but it’s not 50/50 is it?
Very different- there was not direct advice on the “evidently” wording just comfort. It’s just not comparable.

I think that the PL would have had advice that they had at least a good arguable case vs City. Quite possibly stronger advice.
 
Very different- there was not direct advice on the “evidently” wording just comfort. It’s just not comparable.

I think that the PL would have had advice that they had at least a good arguable case vs City. Quite possibly stronger advice.

Oops…. After all these years of me not caring one iota it seems it’s in the balance :(
 
Thanks. But the Leicester case is not a good example. The lawyer’s advice in that case was that the PL were correct but they lost - the advice was not that they would lose but they carried on regardless. In fact, on Leicester, the PL were amazed they lost given the advice.

Of course, the whole City case could be a huge cock up or a purely vindictive pursuit of a case the PL knew with near certainty they would lose. But, take a step back - that is obviously very unlikely.

Fair do’s. But it is also the case that City, with what we claim is irrefutable evidence and the benefit of disclosure have said come on then let’s have it you cunts.

It appears both sides are very confident in their position.
 
All true. But it does no harm to rinse and repeat these things for people who haven't been as closely involved in this thread as some of us sad sacks, or who have taken an interest recently. We should encourage discussion, I think.

Anyway, I don't think @Prestwich_Blue was being too serious. Just a little mischievous. The rascal.
I was being slightly mischievous as I know a little of Stefan's history with accountancy firms.

I'm certain he's quite correct that BDO will have been extra cautious about forming an opinion on anything that might fall within the scope of the UEFA/CAS/PL investigations. I'm also fairly confident that we won't have deliberately and knowingly misled them over anything to do with these allegations, as they'd have walked away if so. Similarly, I very much doubt they've willingly cooperated in concealing misleading or even fraudulent financial reporting.

But it isn't necessarily black and white with auditors and the work they carry out. Earlier this year, the Financial Reporting Council, which monitors the work that the larger audit firms carry out, found that only 38% of the BDO audits it sampled met an acceptable standard (either requiring no or little improvement). So nearly 2 out of 3 didn't meet that standard. It's not just about asking questions but asking the right ones and making sure you get unambiguous and full answers, and that are corroborated by evidence where possible.

Auditors carry out audits and seek any information they think they need to form their opinion. That information may be ambiguous however, meaning they have to form a conclusion from imperfect information or they may be downright negligent. You also have to know where to look. I was on the audit team that uncovered the first major insider dealing case. We'd suspected something underhand was going on for a few years but the company involved certainly weren't going to volunteer the information and we couldn't pin it down. Finally, and quite by chance, we got a lead and followed it through.

The alleged fraud at Wirecard for example, centred on a very large cash balance (nearly €2bn) the company claimed it held in the Philippines. Yet that balance appears to have been non-existent. My training and experience was that you always sought what was usually routine confirmation of any bank or other accounts from the institutions holding them. It was pretty well the first thing you did on an audit. Yet it appears that EY, a Tier 1 global firm, didn't do that basic check.

If their sales ledger said that a debtor owed them a significant amount of money, you'd generally confirm the balance with the debtor. In fact you'd usually contact several of the larger debtors. And you'd try to ensure the relevant transactions were valid ones. But that's never a complete guarantee that everything is above board.

TL:DR Yes you can mislead auditors or even be in cahoots with them but there is a middle ground where auditors can be negligent, not ask the right questions or come to the right conclusions from the evidence they have.
 
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I don’t see the point in living in a delusion that the PL have just pursued a case to the ends of the earth that they know they will lose and spent 10s of millions doing that. It’s simply not realistic. They obviously think they have a belief they can win before the hearing. Now it’s complete, that is much less clear because it May now be obvious they failed - in fact City’s confidence is that
Odd isn’t it that this is the post Keith Moon hasn’t liked lol.

What Keith fails to realise is that there are no real winners either way. The rabid joy of Keith if City lost. Hot on the heels would be further litigation which could potentially involve a third of the football pyramid. It would be mayhem and very expensive.

I don’t think many have considered the fall out. Worst case scenario imho is we are found guilty and given a substantial points deduction ensuring relegation. This keeps the football pyramid intact. That wouldn’t be the end of it though. Isn’t it about £2 million a place in the Premier League? Clubs who finished 18th would be factoring in lost revenue through relegation. The Premier League will be very very busy.

I appreciate your vastly superior knowledge of the legal system but I also believe political factors will play a part. In essence this is a sleight on HRH Sheikh Mansour. There is a £22 billion trading relationship with the UAE to consider.
 
I was being slightly mischievous as I know a little of Stefan's history with accountancy firms.

I'm certain he's quite correct that BDO will have been extra cautious about forming an opinion on anything that might fall within the scope of the UEFA/CAS/PL investigations. I'm also fairly confident that we won't have deliberately and knowingly misled them over anything to do with these allegations, as they'd have walked away if so. Similarly, I very much doubt they've willingly cooperated in concealing misleading or even fraudulent financial reporting.

But it isn't necessarily black and white with auditors and the work they carry out. Earlier this year, the Financial Reporting Council, which monitors the work that the larger audit firms carry out, found that only 38% of the BDO audits it sampled met an acceptable standard (either requiring no or little improvement). So nearly 2 out of 3 didn't meet that standard. It's not just about asking questions but asking the right ones and making sure you get unambiguous and full answers, and that are corroborated by evidence where possible.

Auditors carry out audits and seek any information they think they need to form their opinion. That information may be ambiguous however, meaning they have to form a conclusion from imperfect information or they may be downright negligent. You also have to know where to look. I was on the audit team that uncovered the first major insider dealing case. We'd suspected something underhand was going on for a few years but the company involved certainly weren't going to volunteer the information and we couldn't pin it down. Finally, and quite by chance, we got a lead and followed it through.

The alleged fraud at Wirecard for example, centred on a very large cash balance (nearly €2bn) the company claimed it held in the Philippines. Yet that balance appears to have been non-existent. My training and experience was that you always sought what was usually routine confirmation of any bank or other accounts from the institutions holding them. It was pretty well the first thing you did on an audit.

If their sales ledger said that a debtor owed them a significant amount money, you'd generally confirm the balance with the debtor. In fact you'd usually contact several of the larger debtors. And you'd try to ensure the relevant transactions were valid ones. But that's never a complete guarantee that everything is above board.
This is a classic straw man used by those who deny the relevance of City’s audits (I know that’s not your point but it is the effect). Nobody is suggesting audits are a guarantee a company is free of fraud or that there is not a major issue with general audit quality. Quite evidently, there is.

My point is that we aren’t talking about a normal audit. We are talking about a very high profile company with allegations of false accounting since at least 2013, actual “prosecutions”, multiple cases presented by lawyers and accountancy firms over the years, very specific (written and detailed) allegations relating to the company’s biggest commercial contract and many other matters capable of specific audit enquiry. In that context, clean audits including for the year just ended are, in my view, highly persuasive. Because, as I said above, the only 2 scenarios I see as possible are the auditors being given false reassurance or auditors involvement in wrong doing (which I don’t believe). Right or wrong, I dismiss the idea the BDO have not enquired in detail each time an investigation, charge or material allegations have been presented. So for the PL to win, City have repeatedly lied to the auditors (as well as lots of other parties). Again very unlikely
 

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