Russian invasion of Ukraine

[cleavers]

The world waits to hear what comes out of Saudi Arabia but they’re not peace talks, it’s an attempted carve up I fear.

Nothing much will come of it from a "peace" or "ceasefire" point of view.

 

[mosssideblue]

Wait, an end to the carnage, an attempt to determine the will of the Ukrainian people, followed by a negotiated settlement, has people up in arms?

Really?

 

[cleavers]

Putin wants all NATO troops to leave the "old" Soviet Empire countries.

Slava Ukraini.

A very very unrealitic "want".

 

[cleavers]

Is the correct answer, only if it was completely independent could it have any semblance of been ok, even then it would be fixed.

It'll be "fixed" whoever wins it, and it's unlikely to include the many Ukrainians who are already annexed under putin's control, the very definition of "fixed".

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Plenty of indication of the brilliance of Trump's negotiating strategy around.

Wanna wanna Nobel Prize
Gotta get a Nobel Prize
Peanut bloke got one, why not me?
Kenyan bloke got one, why not me?
Elon help me, Vlad you too
Wanna wanna Nobel Prize
What you want to fix it for me?
Anything, everything, just get one for me!

 

[St.Pauli support]

I have no doubt that trump wants another fantastic deal in Riad.

The deal with putin will not so much be about Ukraine or Europe,
it will be about US interests like
cheap fossil energy deals with ruzzia (bilateral trade),
rare earth deals from Ukraine AND ruzzia (I said it before),
Gaza and Near East,
the Arctic Sea and other common interests like African minerals.

Europe is only interesting for trump as a huge market to make business.
It's easy for trump to give putin the old soviet states. He won't matter.

It's all about business to 'Maga' and fukc democracy.
No doubt.

 

[Blue Maverick]

I have no doubt that trump wants another fantastic deal in Riad.

The deal with putin will not so much be about Ukraine or Europe,
it will be about US interests like
cheap fossil energy deals with ruzzia (bilateral trade),
rare earth deals from Ukraine AND ruzzia (I said it before),
Gaza and Near East,
the Arctic Sea and other common interests like African minerals.

Europe is only interesting for trump as a huge market to make business.
It's easy for trump to give putin the old soviet states. He won't matter.

It's all about business to 'Maga' and fukc democracy.
No doubt.

And he will be long dead when Russia inevitably renege on any deals.

 

[Hgblue2]

For a ceasefire to happen, both sides have to agree which will be difficult if one side isn’t actually part of the talks or represented at the talks.

Elections are a matter for the Ukrainian people and would ideally happen after a permanent peace deal is signed not during a pause in hostilities. ‘Elect the candidate I like or get bombed’ isn’t conducive to an open election. Additionally, the occupied territories will be problematic. Do Ukrainians there get a vote? Will it be rigged to sway the outcome?

A final settlement will have to be negotiated between the two sides in the conflict. Again, this will be difficult if one side is absent or not represented.

Thanks for the respectful response, I have a minority opinion but I also feel I have the best interests of the Ukrainian people at heart. I want the carnage to stop and I'm baffled that this triggers people so much.

So onto the actual proposals that seem to have people so outraged.

1. Ceasefire, seems to me that if a peaceful resolution is to be found this needs to be the first step. A demonstration that both sides are willing to end the hostilities and look for a way out of the tragic loss of life. It also should create a calmer environment and hopefully help to facilitate meaningful negotiations at a later date.

2. Elections, let politicians put their ideas for ending or continuing the war in front of the Ukrainian people and seek a democratic mandate for a settlement. If we are in favour of democracy then surely attempting to find out what the people want is a good thing? I appreciate the logistical obstacles but this should be possible if the fighting has stopped and international observers are able to operate.

3. Negotiations, once the will of the Ukrainian people has been determined then substantive negotiations can take place if this is the democratically expressed will of the people. It's worth noting that if it is the will of the Ukrainian people to continue fighting then they can elect a president who advocates for this.

I understand that the majority on here have become invested in the continuation of this war so any proposals to end it will be opposed, apart from totally unrealistic aims that basically amount to a Russian capitulation which is highly unlikely to happen. So from my point of view as somebody who wants to see an end to this conflict, the proposed roadmap seems sensible enough.

 

[Kirkstall Blue]

I just can't get over this. Why do the yanks think they have any right to discuss what happens to a sovereign state without inviting them?
Effectively the US have invaded Ukraine by using Russian troops.

It’s the worse thing of all Ukraine caught in between two superpowers only the Chinese big enough to call for an end to the war.
Trump is a Russian collaborator Musk pulling his strings carving up Ukraines rare earth metals between them.
Trump is concerned at the “slaughter of Russian troops in the meatwave” it has to end. No concern for the devastation of Ukraine and it’s citizens, no reparations that’s all ignored.

 

[mosssideblue]

Thanks for the respectful response, I have a minority opinion but I also feel I have the best interests of the Ukrainian people at heart. I want the carnage to stop and I'm baffled that this triggers people so much.

So onto the actual proposals that seem to have people so outraged.

1. Ceasefire, seems to me that if a peaceful resolution is to be found this needs to be the first step. A demonstration that both sides are willing to end the hostilities and look for a way out of the tragic loss of life. It also should create a calmer environment and hopefully help to facilitate meaningful negotiations at a later date.

2. Elections, let politicians put their ideas for ending or continuing the war in front of the Ukrainian people and seek a democratic mandate for a settlement. If we are in favour of democracy then surely attempting to find out what the people want is a good thing? I appreciate the logistical obstacles but this should be possible if the fighting has stopped and international observers are able to operate.

3. Negotiations, once the will of the Ukrainian people has been determined then substantive negotiations can take place if this is the democratically expressed will of the people. It's worth noting that if it is the will of the Ukrainian people to continue fighting then they can elect a president who advocates for this.

I understand that the majority on here have become invested in the continuation of this war so any proposals to end it will be opposed, apart from totally unrealistic aims that basically amount to a Russian capitulation which is highly unlikely to happen. So from my point of view as somebody who wants to see an end to this conflict, the proposed roadmap seems sensible enough.

Sorry, whilst you may have good intentions, your solution is so naive, I have to think you are wumming

 

[St.Pauli support]

Elections? By whom? Citizen situation of 2014?
How many Ukrainians left Donbas/Luhansk/Crimea since then?
How many left since Feb 2022?
How many been deported and never returned?
How many ruzzians arrived? What about ruzzian soldiers?

We can skip elections on ruzzian occupied ground right now, that's fake.
ruzzian style pseudo-democratic expansion policies.
Seen it too often, it's boring.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Thanks for the respectful response, I have a minority opinion but I also feel I have the best interests of the Ukrainian people at heart. I want the carnage to stop and I'm baffled that this triggers people so much.

So onto the actual proposals that seem to have people so outraged.

1. Ceasefire, seems to me that if a peaceful resolution is to be found this needs to be the first step. A demonstration that both sides are willing to end the hostilities and look for a way out of the tragic loss of life. It also should create a calmer environment and hopefully help to facilitate meaningful negotiations at a later date.

2. Elections, let politicians put their ideas for ending or continuing the war in front of the Ukrainian people and seek a democratic mandate for a settlement. If we are in favour of democracy then surely attempting to find out what the people want is a good thing? I appreciate the logistical obstacles but this should be possible if the fighting has stopped and international observers are able to operate.

3. Negotiations, once the will of the Ukrainian people has been determined then substantive negotiations can take place if this is the democratically expressed will of the people. It's worth noting that if it is the will of the Ukrainian people to continue fighting then they can elect a president who advocates for this.

I understand that the majority on here have become invested in the continuation of this war so any proposals to end it will be opposed, apart from totally unrealistic aims that basically amount to a Russian capitulation which is highly unlikely to happen. So from my point of view as somebody who wants to see an end to this conflict, the proposed roadmap seems sensible enough.

You strike me an an intelligent person and much of what you say there is founded in reason, but you plainly have a blind spot when it comes to Russia and much of what you have posted there is predicated on the fact that they will act in good faith when all the evidence points to the fact they will not.

You talk of ending this conflcit but what conflict are you referring to? The one Russia started in 2014, 2022, or the one they have been conducting against Europe for the entirety of this century?

Because if it’s not the latter that you are referring to then you’ve not been paying attention, and if it is the latter then if you think any deal that arises from these talks will ‘end’ that then you are hopelessly naive.

They are cunts. This is evidenced with how they treat their own and those around them.

 

[Blue Mist]

Thanks for the respectful response, I have a minority opinion but I also feel I have the best interests of the Ukrainian people at heart. I want the carnage to stop and I'm baffled that this triggers people so much.

So onto the actual proposals that seem to have people so outraged.

1. Ceasefire, seems to me that if a peaceful resolution is to be found this needs to be the first step. A demonstration that both sides are willing to end the hostilities and look for a way out of the tragic loss of life. It also should create a calmer environment and hopefully help to facilitate meaningful negotiations at a later date.

2. Elections, let politicians put their ideas for ending or continuing the war in front of the Ukrainian people and seek a democratic mandate for a settlement. If we are in favour of democracy then surely attempting to find out what the people want is a good thing? I appreciate the logistical obstacles but this should be possible if the fighting has stopped and international observers are able to operate.

3. Negotiations, once the will of the Ukrainian people has been determined then substantive negotiations can take place if this is the democratically expressed will of the people. It's worth noting that if it is the will of the Ukrainian people to continue fighting then they can elect a president who advocates for this.

I understand that the majority on here have become invested in the continuation of this war so any proposals to end it will be opposed, apart from totally unrealistic aims that basically amount to a Russian capitulation which is highly unlikely to happen. So from my point of view as somebody who wants to see an end to this conflict, the proposed roadmap seems sensible enough.

Wow.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Sorry, whilst you may have good intentions, your solution is so naive, I have to think you are wumming

This

 

[MillionMilesAway]

So Russia and US have had a meeting which is largely about restoring relations between themselves.
Ukraine seems to be an afterthought.

Not shocked.

 

[b6_brum]

Thanks for the respectful response, I have a minority opinion but I also feel I have the best interests of the Ukrainian people at heart. I want the carnage to stop and I'm baffled that this triggers people so much.

So onto the actual proposals that seem to have people so outraged.

1. Ceasefire, seems to me that if a peaceful resolution is to be found this needs to be the first step. A demonstration that both sides are willing to end the hostilities and look for a way out of the tragic loss of life. It also should create a calmer environment and hopefully help to facilitate meaningful negotiations at a later date.

2. Elections, let politicians put their ideas for ending or continuing the war in front of the Ukrainian people and seek a democratic mandate for a settlement. If we are in favour of democracy then surely attempting to find out what the people want is a good thing? I appreciate the logistical obstacles but this should be possible if the fighting has stopped and international observers are able to operate.

3. Negotiations, once the will of the Ukrainian people has been determined then substantive negotiations can take place if this is the democratically expressed will of the people. It's worth noting that if it is the will of the Ukrainian people to continue fighting then they can elect a president who advocates for this.

I understand that the majority on here have become invested in the continuation of this war so any proposals to end it will be opposed, apart from totally unrealistic aims that basically amount to a Russian capitulation which is highly unlikely to happen. So from my point of view as somebody who wants to see an end to this conflict, the proposed roadmap seems sensible enough.

Where (and how) do Ukraine hold these elections?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

So Russia and US have had a meeting which is largely about restoring relations between themselves.
Ukraine seems to be an afterthought.

Not shocked.

This. Disgusting. Look at the players.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Where (and how) do Ukraine hold these elections?

More to the point, why are new and free elections a pre-requisite for Ukraine, but not Russia. Enquiring minds and all that.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

This. Disgusting. Look at the players.

Listening to Lavrov repeatedly harking back to Biden mistakes - you could easily think that he knows that blaming Biden is an easy way to keep Trump happy.

Because everyone knows it.

 

[cleavers]

Thanks for the respectful response, I have a minority opinion but I also feel I have the best interests of the Ukrainian people at heart. I want the carnage to stop and I'm baffled that this triggers people so much.

So onto the actual proposals that seem to have people so outraged.

1. Ceasefire, seems to me that if a peaceful resolution is to be found this needs to be the first step. A demonstration that both sides are willing to end the hostilities and look for a way out of the tragic loss of life. It also should create a calmer environment and hopefully help to facilitate meaningful negotiations at a later date.

2. Elections, let politicians put their ideas for ending or continuing the war in front of the Ukrainian people and seek a democratic mandate for a settlement. If we are in favour of democracy then surely attempting to find out what the people want is a good thing? I appreciate the logistical obstacles but this should be possible if the fighting has stopped and international observers are able to operate.

3. Negotiations, once the will of the Ukrainian people has been determined then substantive negotiations can take place if this is the democratically expressed will of the people. It's worth noting that if it is the will of the Ukrainian people to continue fighting then they can elect a president who advocates for this.

I understand that the majority on here have become invested in the continuation of this war so any proposals to end it will be opposed, apart from totally unrealistic aims that basically amount to a Russian capitulation which is highly unlikely to happen. So from my point of view as somebody who wants to see an end to this conflict, the proposed roadmap seems sensible enough.

Obviously point 1 is crucial.

Point 2, I'm not sure how you can hold elections that will be anything meaningful, with 20% of the country occupied, and probably not allowed to vote (best case), or told they will vote for x (most likely case). Even if some election can take place, do you actually think it will be free and open ?

Point 3 is mute on point 2 happening, and no meaningful elected president will want the conflict continuing, do you think Zelensky wants that ?

Your post rather infers how "simple" all this is, it isn't, it's not just about the conflict, there's all these sactions on top, how do you negotiate on those, and who with ?

What about russian gas/oil, do you want that be being pumped across the european borders again ? Do you want it in your car, your heating system ? I hope it never happens, and the west (trump aside) continue to head to a greener way of living. That oil/gas is what funded the original invasion (mind you putin getting that infrastructure working again will be a huge task in itself, could take years or even decades).

Finally do you actually trust putin to keep his word, or even those that succeed him once he's gone, I certainly don't, he allows no opposition, he murders anyone who tries, or even speaks out.