Russian invasion of Ukraine

Elbow beards said:
I just can't get over this. Why do the yanks think they have any right to discuss what happens to a sovereign state without inviting them?
Click to expand...
They don't, and won't, we need to be realistic about dialog, it has to start somewhere, nothing is going to be imposed by the US on Ukraine, but dialog had to start somewhere, I'm less pessimistic about these prelim talks.
 
And there it is... Lavrov says that a NATO country's armed forces under a different flag (so EU, UN...) in Ukraine would be unacceptable.

So there will be no peacekeepers.

It's dead as even a half-arsed plan.
 
MillionMilesAway said:
And there it is... Lavrov says that a NATO country's armed forces under a different flag (so EU, UN...) in Ukraine would be unacceptable.

So there will be no peacekeepers.

It's dead as even a half-arsed plan.
Click to expand...

They will demand an unarmed/demilitarised Ukraine and it won’t happen because that will see Russian troops on the Polish border in no time.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
More to the point, why are new and free elections a pre-requisite for Ukraine, but not Russia. Enquiring minds and all that.
Click to expand...
I don't necessarily agree with many of your points, but I do with this, if free elections have to take place in Ukrain (all of it), then the same should apply to putin and russia (all of it).

Good luck with that.
 
Hgblue2 said:
Thanks for the respectful response, I have a minority opinion but I also feel I have the best interests of the Ukrainian people at heart. I want the carnage to stop and I'm baffled that this triggers people so much.
Click to expand...
I don't think you're writing this from a position of good faith; but in case you are, i'll bite. What your characterisation leaves out is the fact that the price of your peace and 'stopping the carnage' is the not inconsiderable matter of the soverignty, self-determination and freedon from Russian rule of Ukraine and all its citizens.

The will of the Ukrainian people in regard to this was made plain the day of Russia's invasion, and has continued ever since; they are prepared to fight and endure unimaginable sacrifice in the face of Russia's aggression, rather than submit to its will. If they wanted peace and an end to conflict at any cost - as per your charcterisation - they could have achieved that day 1 by rolling over and not resisting.

Re your last para below you seem to understand that Russian capitulation is a non-starter; yet Ukrainian capitulation appears to be an unspoken given in your formulation. Why is that?
Hgblue2 said:
So onto the actual proposals that seem to have people so outraged.

1. Ceasefire, seems to me that if a peaceful resolution is to be found this needs to be the first step. A demonstration that both sides are willing to end the hostilities and look for a way out of the tragic loss of life. It also should create a calmer environment and hopefully help to facilitate meaningful negotiations at a later date.

2. Elections, let politicians put their ideas for ending or continuing the war in front of the Ukrainian people and seek a democratic mandate for a settlement. If we are in favour of democracy then surely attempting to find out what the people want is a good thing? I appreciate the logistical obstacles but this should be possible if the fighting has stopped and international observers are able to operate.

3. Negotiations, once the will of the Ukrainian people has been determined then substantive negotiations can take place if this is the democratically expressed will of the people. It's worth noting that if it is the will of the Ukrainian people to continue fighting then they can elect a president who advocates for this.

I understand that the majority on here have become invested in the continuation of this war so any proposals to end it will be opposed, apart from totally unrealistic aims that basically amount to a Russian capitulation which is highly unlikely to happen. So from my point of view as somebody who wants to see an end to this conflict, the proposed roadmap seems sensible enough.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
blueinsa said:
They will demand an unarmed/demilitarised Ukraine and it won’t happen because that will see Russian troops on the Polish border in no time.
Click to expand...
He might demand that, but it won't happen, at the very least Ukraine will retain it's armed forces.

Luckily putin doesn't have that many left to get close to the Polish border, and then there's Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia on the NATO side, he won't dare go there for a long time, so it's unlikely in the short term, without at least doing his recruitment in parts of russia that are currently largely off limits, ie Moscow and St P, and other bigger cities.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
That's exactly what the US intends to do
Click to expand...
....and that's where we will disagree, nobody actually knows what the US/trump wants right now, and it simply can't not involve the country it's all about.

Zelensky, and more importantly the Ukraine population won't allow it, anyone thinking otherwise is kidding themselves. Zelensky isn't going to sell out for trump.
 
From the Russian negotiating team comments, it looks like Trump gave the Russians everything they wanted.
What a bunch of cretins Tango man and his MAGA associates are.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
You strike me an an intelligent person and much of what you say there is founded in reason, but you plainly have a blind spot when it comes to Russia and much of what you have posted there is predicated on the fact that they will act in good faith when all the evidence points to the fact they will not.

You talk of ending this conflcit but what conflict are you referring to? The one Russia started in 2014, 2022, or the one they have been conducting against Europe for the entirety of this century?

Because if it’s not the latter that you are referring to then you’ve not been paying attention, and if it is the latter then if you think any deal that arises from these talks will ‘end’ that then you are hopelessly naive.

They are cunts. This is evidenced with how they treat their own and those around them.
Click to expand...
There’s something that’s been bothering me about this thread for a while and now is a good time to get this off my chest.

Underneath the surface of those who are pledging their undying support for Ukraine, is that these same people are also willing to sacrifice Ukraine on the altar of some wider geopolitical goal.

It reminds me of the kids at school who would encourage their mate to take on the school bully, not because they think he can win, or because they love their mate, but because they hate the bully and want to see him get a bloody nose.

A pause in the fighting, with an opportunity for the Ukrainian people to have a voice about the future of their country is something that people should want to see if they believe in democracy.

If they make clear that they don’t want to see any concessions in return for a peaceful settlement, then the carnage can continue and people can get back to posting video of Russian soldiers getting blown to pieces, in the sure and certain knowledge that something similar is happening to Ukrainian men.

I will still oppose this, but at least we will know that this is happening with the blessing of the Ukrainian people. Although my strong suspicion is that if the Ukrainian public is given the opportunity to have a say, they will vote to end it.
 
Hgblue2 said:
There’s something that’s been bothering me about this thread for a while and now is a good time to get this off my chest.

Underneath the surface of those who are pledging their undying support for Ukraine, is that these same people are also willing to sacrifice Ukraine on the altar of some wider geopolitical goal.

It reminds me of the kids at school who would encourage their mate to take on the school bully, not because they think he can win, or because they love their mate, but because they hate the bully and want to see him get a bloody nose.

A pause in the fighting, with an opportunity for the Ukrainian people to have a voice about the future of their country is something that people should want to see if they believe in democracy.

If they make clear that they don’t want to see any concessions in return for a peaceful settlement, then the carnage can continue and people can get back to posting video of Russian soldiers getting blown to pieces, in the sure and certain knowledge that something similar is happening to Ukrainian men.

I will still oppose this, but at least we will know that this is happening with the blessing of the Ukrainian people. Although my strong suspicion is that if the Ukrainian public is given the opportunity to have a say, they will vote to end it.
Click to expand...

You keep saying this but you cant seem to suggest how this can happen? how can an election under threat of violence be free and fair? how can the people in the occupied areas vote? how can it be guaranteed no interference from Russia as they will ( as is proven in other countries ) want to get there puppets into power.

Until that can be answered there cant be free elections in Ukraine so there cant be that fair voice you seem to want. it will be a heavily biased and abused voice.
 
Every Ukrainian 155mm artilary piece will soon have the capability to be as good as a HMARS launcher being able to lob special shells at hyper sonic velocities at 2 to 5 times the current 155mm artilary range.
Currently under test in Ukraine for full deployment within a month.
 
Last edited:
Hgblue2 said:
Although my strong suspicion is that if the Ukrainian public is given the opportunity to have a say, they will vote to end it.
Click to expand...
Some polling for you.

lordashcroftpolls.com

Defence and Diplomacy: Evolving Opinion on Ukraine's War - Lord Ashcroft Polls

President Trump’s talks with Presidents Zelensky and Putin, together with US special envoy Keith Kellogg’s imminent arrival in Kyiv, have raised expectations that a settlement to the conflict may at last be on the horizon. As my latest polling shows, Ukrainians will be treating this prospect...
lordashcroftpolls.com lordashcroftpolls.com
 
a big fuck off to orange and midget cunts

Zelensky on the US-russia talks in Saudi Arabia.

“If we didn’t give in to all of putin’s ultimatums at the most difficult moment (at the beginning of 2022, when no one was helping us), then where does the feeling come from that Ukraine will give in to this now? <…> I wasn’t going to give in to russia’s ultimatums then and I’m not going to give in now.”
 
Hgblue2 said:
There’s something that’s been bothering me about this thread for a while and now is a good time to get this off my chest.

Underneath the surface of those who are pledging their undying support for Ukraine, is that these same people are also willing to sacrifice Ukraine on the altar of some wider geopolitical goal.

It reminds me of the kids at school who would encourage their mate to take on the school bully, not because they think he can win, or because they love their mate, but because they hate the bully and want to see him get a bloody nose.

A pause in the fighting, with an opportunity for the Ukrainian people to have a voice about the future of their country is something that people should want to see if they believe in democracy.

If they make clear that they don’t want to see any concessions in return for a peaceful settlement, then the carnage can continue and people can get back to posting video of Russian soldiers getting blown to pieces, in the sure and certain knowledge that something similar is happening to Ukrainian men.

I will still oppose this, but at least we will know that this is happening with the blessing of the Ukrainian people. Although my strong suspicion is that if the Ukrainian public is given the opportunity to have a say, they will vote to end it.
Click to expand...
Your analogy is a complete non-sequitur to the point I raised, but at least you acknowledge that Russia acts at a bully. What would your suggestion be for dealing with this bully? Because from where I’m standing, if this bully hadn’t been stood up to then Ukraine would have been overwhelmed a long time ago, so what’s your solution?

And yes, I accept this is about more than Ukraine, but they are the focal point of Russian truculence and so will naturally generate more narrative around the subject, but anyone who cannot see Russia for what it is is a deluded fool. The evidence is there for all to see.
 
cleavers said:
....and that's where we will disagree, nobody actually knows what the US/trump wants right now, and it simply can't not involve the country it's all about.

Zelensky, and more importantly the Ukraine population won't allow it, anyone thinking otherwise is kidding themselves. Zelensky isn't going to sell out for trump.
Click to expand...
Well if any indications from Trump himself so far, are anything to go on, well it’s all about 50% of the country he’s not included in the negotiations.

It’s absolutely disgusting.
This from your allies?
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Your analogy is a complete non-sequitur to the point I raised, but at least you acknowledge that Russia acts at a bully. What would your suggestion be for dealing with this bully? Because from where I’m standing, if this bully hadn’t been stood up to then Ukraine would have been overwhelmed a long time ago, so what’s your solution?

And yes, I accept this is about more than Ukraine, but they are the focal point of Russian truculence and so will naturally generate more narrative around the subject, but anyone who cannot see Russia for what it is is a deluded fool. The evidence is there for all to see.
Click to expand...
I can see Russia for what it is and I respect that Ukraine is standing up to a bully. However, the cost to Ukraine of this response has been huge, in my opinion, unacceptably high.

So, can we just stop the fighting, start talking, and ask the Ukrainian people whether the cost is acceptable to them?

It’s all well and good people talking tough when it’s not their kids getting blown to pieces.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top