Should National Service be mandatory ?

[cleavers]

Unfortunately it maybe a necessity, the forces we have are just not enough, there maybe be lots of crying and wailing but there’s a pretty good chance in the next few years war might happen in Europe now. People have to stop this thinking it’s nit on our land because once it reaches our shores it’s too late. Many other countries have it and times are changing fast they’d need to get a move on.

Small point, but there's been a war in Europe for 3 years in a couple of days, since the first couple of weeks russia has lost most of the ground it gained in those few days.

Another point, they've lost 100's of thousands of conscripts losing all that they gained.

On the national service idea, if young people (who I'm sure you are targetting with your post) can't get legitimate work, then there are hundreds of other things they could usefully do in this country, far away from our professional armed forces, such as help fill in potholes, learn to drive ambulances etc, that'd be useful "national service"

Another point, if the government was to employ all these people for "national service", where do they get the money to pay the from ?

 

[BrianW]

Perhaps we could hire more Gurkhas. We only take a few, with huge competition for places, and those guys would scare the fuck out of the Russians. (Or anyone else.)

 

[Scottyboi]

Perhaps we could hire more Gurkhas. We only take a few, with huge competition for places, and those guys would scare the fuck out of the Russians. (Or anyone else.)

And then tell them they can't become British Citizens afterwards.

 

[mosssideblue]

Small point, but there's been a war in Europe for 3 years in a couple of days, since the first couple of weeks russia has lost most of the ground it gained in those few days.

Another point, they've lost 100's of thousands of conscripts losing all that they gained.

On the national service idea, if young people (who I'm sure you are targetting with your post) can't get legitimate work, then there are hundreds of other things they could usefully do in this country, far away from our professional armed forces, such as help fill in potholes, learn to drive ambulances etc, that'd be useful "national service"

Another point, if the government was to employ all these people for "national service", where do they get the money to pay the from ?

Totally agree on this and would add also that their benefits are predicated on this

 

[Man-chester copperpot]

Fuck that, fighting abroad getting shot at and bombed for months on end.

I would survive, get back home and get stabbed to death by some little scrote who says he has mental health issues who identifies as a non-binary unicorn.

2 things i say to my girls, you don’t join the army and don’t support anyone but City (and only watch the original Star Wars)

Joking aside - i would if i had to. How much is the pay & do we get holidays?

 

[Blue Maverick]

But you didn't mention any of this in your first post. You just said "Make National Service mandatory because war in Europe is coming and we need to toughen up our British youngsters to fight foreigners". You can't start adding all these caveats just because you didn't think your first post through properly.

What are you on about national service has only ever been about men of fighting age. What happens when the list of volunteers stop? Our forces have been decimated, technology does not take ground it helps but you still need boots there.

 

[red 2 hats]

No, you can't force people against their will.

The take up would be very, very small, the loyalty and national pride is no longer there, young people who have for years been told they're useless and worthless expected to put there life's on the line.

Could you imagine the drug testing before conscription, that's a hole lot of knock backs straight away, conscientious objectors, fitness levels, hurty feelings, identity.
If my kids were on the list, I would do everything possible for them to avoid it

We've treated ex British and foreign service personnel like shit, we've purposely reduced personnel and equipment for years to cut costs, we've gone into conflicts where we had no right to be there.

 

[stonie]

Never happen in this day and age, have you seen the state of the target age of who would be expected to be called up? besides we would be vapourised before we would have chance to deploy

 

[threespires]

I’m not taking it out on you, there was a debate on tv which I thought was interesting, obviously people don’t think like me in that it would be a good thing I suppose we wait for conscription instead then

I've wandered what conscription would look like now and how it might work, or not as the case may be. YouGov did some follow up polling last year on 18-40 year olds after a previous poll identified that more people would refuse to serve than would volunteer or accept conscription. I'm paraphrasing but the single biggest reason given for saying they would refuse was they would not fight for people who didn't give a toss about them.

What was interesting was there were two sides to this view, those who cited wealth concentration and inequality and those who cited mass immigration etc. Either way people across the political spectrum were saying they weren't going to die for 'elites'.

I don't know how that compares to attitudes prior to the two WWs but society has changed markedly since those times. Not only is there much less deference now but you can reasonably say that a sense of duty permeated all levels of society so there was a sense of everyone shouldering the burden whether equally or not. It's reasonable to say that the upper/middle classes didn't insulate themselves from the effects of war, certainly not in WW1 at least. Now I suspect most people would assume that the wealthy's response to conflict would be to absolutely try to insulate themselves. What rising inequality and the concentration of wealth in a tiny proportion of the population has done is create a sense of unfairmess that I think will continue to feed a refusal to serve.

I've wondered if whether a very clear and present existential threat to our way of life will change people's minds and they'd serve even with their misgivings but I suspect it might take more than that. Without an ostentatious show that the burden will be shouldered 'fairly', conscription could be an absolute shit show. What form that ostentatious show takes I don't know but it would also have to be something genuine and profound for it to wash. Maybe the offspring of the wealthiest will have to be drafted in at scale into some of the most dangerous roles; maybe some sort of post-war societal reset covenant agreed upfront; maybe significant portions of the super rich's wealth will have to be coopted for the war effort with no return provided for it. All sounds a bit pie in the sky but the post-war social consensus has long since died on its arse and, without some sort of renewal, getting people to fight for a society they don't feel they have a stake in is going to be a tall order I suspect.

 

[Blue Maverick]

I've wandered what conscription would look like now and how it might work, or not as the case may be. YouGov did some follow up polling last year on 18-40 year olds after a previous poll identified that more people would refuse to serve than would volunteer or accept conscription. I'm paraphrasing but the single biggest reason given for saying they would refuse was they would not fight for people who didn't give a toss about them.

What was interesting was there were two sides to this view, those who cited wealth concentration and inequality and those who cited mass immigration etc. Either way people across the political spectrum were saying they weren't going to die for 'elites'.

I don't know how that compares to attitudes prior to the two WWs but society has changed markedly since those times. Not only is there much less deference now but you can reasonably say that a sense of duty permeated all levels of society so there was a sense of everyone shouldering the burden whether equally or not. It's reasonable to say that the upper/middle classes didn't insulate themselves from the effects of war, certainly not in WW1 at least. Now I suspect most people would assume that the wealthy's response to conflict would be to absolutely try to insulate themselves. What rising inequality and the concentration of wealth in a tiny proportion of the population has done is create a sense of unfairmess that I think will continue to feed a refusal to serve.

I've wondered if whether a very clear and present existential threat to our way of life will change people's minds and they'd serve even with their misgivings but I suspect it might take more than that. Without an ostentatious show that the burden will be shouldered 'fairly', conscription could be an absolute shit show. What form that ostentatious show takes I don't know but it would also have to be something genuine and profound for it to wash. Maybe the offspring of the wealthiest will have to be drafted in at scale into some of the most dangerous roles; maybe some sort of post-war societal reset covenant agreed upfront; maybe significant portions of the super rich's wealth will have to be coopted for the war effort with no return provided for it. All sounds a bit pie in the sky but the post-war social consensus has long since died on its arse and, without some sort of renewal, getting people to fight for a society they don't feel they have a stake in is going to be a tall order I suspect.

I get what your saying but at what point do those people change, I hope we don’t have to find out as by then it would be to late.

 

[Tugay One Cup]

I don't know why we're putting an age cap on it. You're never too old to distract the drones.

 

[Blue Maverick]

I don't know why we're putting an age cap on it. You're never too old to distract the drones.

I suppose those in their mobility scooters would be ok on the roads but not so much in the forests, would also solve the pension crisis.

 

[heslops barnet]

I suppose those in their mobility scooters would be ok on the roads but not so much in the forests, would also solve the pension crisis.

Don’t give the government ideas..

 

[hcblue95]

Never happen in this day and age, have you seen the state of the target age of who would be expected to be called up? besides we would be vapourised before we would have chance to deploy

Maybe the people of target age aren't too keen to put their lives on the line to protect people who think so little of them, such as yourself?

 

[threespires]

I get what your saying but at what point do those people change, I hope we don’t have to find out as by then it would be to late.

Aye, and there's the rub. I agree, in fact I'm not sure they ever will let alone in time for it to help. The modern ability to move and hide wealth easily is a huge problem. Perhaps a government at least genuinely trying to co-opt the richest into a war effort might convince people there was still a nation state, representing all it's citizens, that was worth fighting for?

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

At least we still have the Save Are Cuntry patriots that’ll sign up instantly.

 

[BrianW]

Just do a press gang on every Wetherspoons. Works for me.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

Fcuk yer national service. Those advocating are gonna be FOCs who just want to moan about young people....or ex servicemen who probably didnt actually see action/war

As a kid who grew up as an Army Child...the son of a psycopathic bully squadie, the step son of a officer who died serving here in Northern Ireland and then step son again to another ex NI serving soldier who battled PTSD until he died last year...i wouldnt wish that "career" on anyone.

Defending the country aint the responsibility of the cannon fodder they thrust to the front

 

[mosssideblue]

Fcuk yer national service. Those advocating are gonna be FOCs who just want to moan about young people....or ex servicemen who probably didnt actually see action/war

As a kid who grew up as an Army Child...the son of a psycopathic bully squadie, the step son of a officer who died serving here in Northern Ireland and then step son again to another ex NI serving soldier who battled PTSD until he died last year...i wouldnt wish that "career" on anyone.

Defending the country aint the responsibility of the cannon fodder they thrust to the front

Governments role is to defend their Country, but there are occasions that prevent that and you have hostile forces invading your homeland.

Who's responsibility is it then?

 

[Blue Maverick]

Fcuk yer national service. Those advocating are gonna be FOCs who just want to moan about young people....or ex servicemen who probably didnt actually see action/war

As a kid who grew up as an Army Child...the son of a psycopathic bully squadie, the step son of a officer who died serving here in Northern Ireland and then step son again to another ex NI serving soldier who battled PTSD until he died last year...i wouldnt wish that "career" on anyone.

Defending the country aint the responsibility of the cannon fodder they thrust to the front

Who’s responsibility is it then?