UK supreme court ruling on legal definition of a woman

KS55 said:
While the judgement is correct legally, it doesn’t cover the practical situation on the ground.
I look at it like this:
1. Trans women are biologically male. ( the legal decision.)
2. Trans women are psychologically female.
3. Trans women are socially female eg dress, appearance etc.
So the legal definition is not enough.
Is it practical or desirable to have separate facilities for trans women? (and the rare trans men)
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This is what I mean. It's one thing saying "common sense prevails" and such, but I'm yet to hear from anyone on the gender critical side of things propose a workable, practical alternative for transgender women when they're no longer able to enter women's spaces. Unisex toilets are rare, and gender critical people tend not to like them anyway, and the chances of us adding a third bathroom block for trans women are less than zero. So, in reality, the only spaces left for them, in 99% of public buildings, are men's spaces. But if we run with the gender critical philosophy that men are inherently violent creatures who react dangerously on impulse, doesn't that mean transgender women being attacked by men is much more likely now? Imagine a trans woman walking into a changing room with loads of blokes in it - what do gender critical people think is going to happen?
 
youngbob said:
what is the alternative for transgender women who up to today would have used women's toilets?
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Declare all toilets as unisex, removing all gender related signs, (but with additional signage - if needed - saying "urinals in this one').

Utopia albeit correct...but not going to happen, except very very gradually (would need legislation to enforce), see the US 2A guns debate for another 'genie out of the bottle' issue.
 
youngbob said:
I don't recall ever going into a building where there were men's toilets, women's toilets, and then a third toilet block especially for "trans people". For transgender women, the alternative to using women's toilets is using men's toilets (or, in a pinch disabled toilets). Is the world likely to be a safer place with transgender women using men's toilets, using men's changing rooms, or playing sports with men? You can see why someone would be concerned about a potential increase in hate crimes.
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No I don't see a rise in hate crime no. But where I worked they went to great length in creating transgender toilets. And tbh I think that's the correct way forward as it suits all.
 
blueinsa said:
It’s not about toilets for me, it’s about those who felt they could dictate to women what a woman is, completely over riding their feelings and opinions.

This ruling makes it clear that biological sex defines a women whilst making it clear Trans people are protected but not at the expense of biological women which is what some wanted sadly.
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But again I ask, what is the practical solution once we've established "what a woman is" and have deduced that trans women cannot use women's spaces? Trans women are going to now be using men's spaces and - if what gender critical people say is true - that leaves them exposed to an inherently violent sex, so how exactly are trans women going to be protected when using men's spaces, as they've now been instructed to do by law?
 
youngbob said:
As someone on the opposite side of this, I really just want to know... What are transgender women expected to do now? I hear so much from gender critical people that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's single sex spaces. Okay, fine. But... where are they supposed to go? The ruling has been made so I want answers now.

The obvious response is "the correct dressing rooms/toilets", etc.

But if the argument from gender critical people is that men are inherently violent creatures who can't be controlled, then how does the world become a safer place by telling (as gender critical people see it) effeminate men to go into a men's changing room? Surely that just makes that person a target for violence from their own sex?

I really am willing to listen because I feel like I've never had an answer, and the lack of answers just makes me think that the end goal among gender critical types is for transgender women to not exist at all.
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Unisex/gender neutral toilets are the way forward. Everyone loses - gents queue for hours for a piss, ladies get to sit on toilet seats covered in piss.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
No I don't see a rise in hate crime no. But where I worked they went to great length in creating transgender toilets. And tbh I think that's the correct way forward as it suits all.
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This sounds great, but you are one person working for one business and sadly the sample size isn't big enough.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
less than 1% have gender dysphoria, the whole thing blown out of proportion by the usual right-wing outlets.
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The case was brought by For Women Scotland, the supporters were Sex Matters, LGB Alliance, and the Lesbian Project.

Not your usual right wing fuckers...

716854
 
youngbob said:
This is what I mean. It's one thing saying "common sense prevails" and such, but I'm yet to hear from anyone on the gender critical side of things propose a workable, practical alternative for transgender women when they're no longer able to enter women's spaces. Unisex toilets are rare, and gender critical people tend not to like them anyway, and the chances of us adding a third bathroom block for trans women are less than zero. So, in reality, the only spaces left for them, in 99% of public buildings, are men's spaces. But if we run with the gender critical philosophy that men are inherently violent creatures who react dangerously on impulse, doesn't that mean transgender women being attacked by men is much more likely now? Imagine a trans woman walking into a changing room with loads of blokes in it - what do gender critical people think is going to happen?
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Wtf! "If we run with the idea that all men are shite". Is that for real? What sort of mind bending, insulting, argument is that?

And if trans people don't like using trans toilets they really should just get used to it. That's the way the world works unfortunately.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Unisex/gender neutral toilets are the way forward. Everyone loses - gents queue for hours for a piss, ladies get to sit on toilet seats covered in piss.
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But as I've mentioned already in this thread, gender critical people (who see this ruling as a victory) don't want unisex toilets either. They want women's toilets for females and men's toilets for males, and they think transgender women should be using the latter rather than the former. But I don't see how that makes anything safer. All I see is an increase in hate crimes - and if gender critical people believe men are inherently violent and impulsive, which they seem to, then surely they would agree?
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Wtf! "If we run with the idea that all men are shite". Is that for real? What sort of mind bending argument is that?

And if trans people don't like using trans toilets they really should just get used to it. That's the way the world works unfortunately.
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But "trans toilets" don't exist. You have some unisex facilities but those are few and far between. You can say "that's the way the world works" but... what does that even mean? This thread is now four pages old and I'm yet to be given an answer as to what the practical solutions are for trans women after this ruling.
 
In not comfortable with the triumphalist nature of the celebration of the verdict. But I agree that women’s traditional rights cannot be expunged by trans rights.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
I don't work for them anymore, it was ten years ago. And it was a couple of IT companies.

And since else just mentioned it above.

And it's the way forward don't you agree?
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Right, I agree that unisex toilets are the way forward - but as I've explained, 99% of businesses and public buildings don't have them. We don't live in a world that has unisex toilets and private cubicles for all. So now that transgender women aren't allowed to use women's toilets and changing rooms, where are they supposed to go? Gender critical people say "men's toilets/changing rooms" but gender critical people also argue that men are an inherently violent sex. To that end, telling a bunch of "poofs in dresses" to get changed around men at the gym surely increases the chances of hate crimes and violent incidents, no? So... where are they meant to go now?
 
The perfect fumble said:
Today.

This ruling has whooshed right over your head.
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That’s not what Harman said though. She implied that exclusion was sometimes necessary and sometimes not. When does each apply?
I haven’t seen any obiter dicta or whether the court said anything about the implications of the verdict, so I’ll reserve judgement.
Are you reading implications into the verdict that it doesn’t warrant?
 
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youngbob said:
Right, I agree that unisex toilets are the way forward - but as I've explained, 99% of businesses and public buildings don't have them. We don't live in a world that has unisex toilets and private cubicles for all. So now that transgender women aren't allowed to use women's toilets and changing rooms, where are they supposed to go? Gender critical people say "men's toilets/changing rooms" but gender critical people also argue that men are an inherently violent sex. To that end, telling a bunch of "poofs in dresses" to get changed around men at the gym surely increases the chances of hate crimes and violent incidents, no? So... where are they meant to go now?
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I suppose like disabled toilets, gender neutral toilets will gradually become more common and will eventually be mandated by planning regs.
 
youngbob said:
As someone on the opposite side of this, I really just want to know... What are transgender women expected to do now? I hear so much from gender critical people that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's single sex spaces. Okay, fine. But... where are they supposed to go? The ruling has been made so I want answers now.

The obvious response is "the correct dressing rooms/toilets", etc.

But if the argument from gender critical people is that men are inherently violent creatures who can't be controlled, then how does the world become a safer place by telling (as gender critical people see it) effeminate men to go into a men's changing room? Surely that just makes that person a target for violence from their own sex?

I really am willing to listen because I feel like I've never had an answer, and the lack of answers just makes me think that the end goal among gender critical types is for transgender women to not exist at all.
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I guess as they are biologically male and there are the cubicles in the Male toilets to accommodate them in the male toilets.... then what has been done in the decades past should prevail...? We cannot stop the world spinning on its axis for every single individual issue that is raised.

Personally I think the logical way forward is to have unisex toilets where individual cubicles offer the required privacy but I acknowledge that does in itself deprive women of the right to have women only spaces. Same could apply to changing rooms but this is all going to cost money somewhere down the line.
 
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