UK supreme court ruling on legal definition of a woman

KS55 said:
There is no practical solution that is cost free. I can see why you want a practical solution but not why it has to be cost free. Are you worried that the cost gives people an excuse to do nowt?
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I'm not personally bothered by the prospect of there being a third toilet block in future, or all unisex toilets everywhere with individual private cubicles. (For what it's worth I hate pissing in urinals and always use a cubicle anyway - don't get me started on the troughs at football stadiums). I don't really care how much it costs so long as there's a practical solution. But I don't think the public at large are going to be happy when they realise just how much it's going to cost and how much of an inconvenience it's going to be.
 
SkyBlueFlux said:
Except for the fact that 1 in 500 men don’t have XY chromosomes and many are entirely physiologically normative. What if I told you there are conditions that lead to men having XX chromosomes that have no idea because there is nothing a-typical about them? By your definition these otherwise entirely normal men are suddenly women now.

Whatever you think about this judgment it expressly says that it doesn’t present any opinion at all on biology. It presents a strictly legal view of what constitutes the definition of a woman under the legislation put forward under the Equality Act. The decision seems fairly sober, logical and non-sensationalist - unfortunately nobody will read it. All it is doing is reaffirming that those born female constitute their own protected class and are entitled to their own spaces. It doesn’t really provide any practical solutions on how trans people are expected to live their lives - they aren’t just going to disappear, though it’s clear their very existence will upset some people.

I see the thread has already descended into made up nonsense about cats again, which is always entirely predictable and a bit boring at this point - but it’s not at all controversial to say that physiological traits will always defy people’s attempts to neatly categorise everybody into binary buckets based on overly simplistic criteria like “chromosomes”. The real world just isn’t that simple.
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I agree with a lot of your post - but the “cats” stuff is not made-up nonsense. Our local secondary school has a 13 year old who identifies as an animal
 
youngbob said:
Still waiting for an answer to this.

If you agree with the ruling @blueinsa and @The perfect fumble then please, I really want to know, what are transgender women supposed to do now they (presumably) can't use women's toilets, can't use women's changing rooms, and can't play sports with other women?

I know, I know, "use men's toilets", etc. But do you think we become a safer, less violent nation with transgender women in men's spaces? If it's true after all that men are inherently the more violent sex, do you not think that hate crimes against transgender women are going to spike once they're in a room of men on their own?

Beyond all the calls for "common sense" and "there are two genders and that's it," I've not heard from one gender critical person what transgender women are supposed to do when they're confronted with the possibility of being violently assaulted once they start rocking up in men's changing rooms and toilets?
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it's a tough one for sure.
 
What this represents here is the battle between scientific determinism and social constructionism, and ultimately the scientific view has won.

I do feel for people who do not fit into gender specific roles but what has taken priority in public life is the constructionist view of reality.

That, genders are mere constructs of the male dominated patriarchal society.

I really do find this divisive.
 
youngbob said:
I think trans people just want to go for a wee without being harassed, followed, or beaten up, to be honest. The same as every bugger else - you and me included.

I've repeatedly asked you in this thread if you have any practical solutions for what happens now - beyond "trans women should just use men's toilets". I've offered to listen and try to understand where you're coming from. And yet, the first post of mine you respond to, on page 10, is one where you've spotted something that clashes with your ideology and you've fixated entirely on that part of my post. This is what I mean when I say that the gender critical ideology has reached a dark place - one that was probably interested in protecting women's single-sex spaces once upon a time but has now mutated into something quite hateful.

I don't get the feeling from your posts that you're particularly sympathetic to the trans cause, or that you understand their arguments but just don't agree. You've made numerous jokes about the appearance of trans women, you've laughed along at other jibes, and smugly quoted people on the victorious side of the verdict. Like For Women Scotland are your favourite football team and trans rights activists are United or something. Unfortunately you reflect a lot of my experiences with gender critical people. Not all of them, but a lot of them. Sadly, I don't think gender critical people will stop here - I think the next step is to go after the protections afforded to trans people in the Equality Act and beyond.

But by the time anyone realises that it was never just about protecting women's single-sex spaces, and more about pushing transgender people into the furthest margins possible, it'll be too late. I think, like a lot of culture war stuff on social media, whatever original or well-meaning arguments either side might have were lost in the noise. And this is where we end up. I have gender critical people in my family circle and I have transgender friends - it requires effort, but I can see through the dissonance. Both issues have been very close to my heart for a long time, which is why it bothers me so much that any discussion that could have been had on this has been lost to hate.

And I only really see hate coming from one side these days. The other side just has to listen to a "debate" over their existence and take court defeats on the chin.
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Of course, this kinda layer cake of pejorative nonsense masquerading as empathy repeated over and over and over and over, is why For Women Scotland had to take this all the way to the Supreme Court. But now it seems a discussion needs to be had? That's a new thing! There's never been any call for debate before from the trans lobby, just attacks, no platforming, folk losing their jobs. Gender ideology is quite specific that there should be "No Debate". Still it's comforting to see trashing folk is still in style.

trans-protest-gty-jef-240313_1710336250749_hpMain_16x9_992.jpg


I can't begin to tell you how tired I am of misogynist trolls like you, I know folk in the cross dressing scene, gays and lesbians who are sick to death of it, they are particularly incensed about the transing the gay away cult. Don't waste your time attacking me, spare a though for the mutilation of kids bodies, the denial of puberty to vulnerable children, the ruined lives.

I've come across clones of you time and time again, I could fire any number of genuine questions at you and all you'd do is swerve, prevaricate and attack.

Go away, you're just looking to have this thread closed.
 
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youngbob said:
This is what I mean. It's one thing saying "common sense prevails" and such, but I'm yet to hear from anyone on the gender critical side of things propose a workable, practical alternative for transgender women when they're no longer able to enter women's spaces. Unisex toilets are rare, and gender critical people tend not to like them anyway, and the chances of us adding a third bathroom block for trans women are less than zero. So, in reality, the only spaces left for them, in 99% of public buildings, are men's spaces. But if we run with the gender critical philosophy that men are inherently violent creatures who react dangerously on impulse, doesn't that mean transgender women being attacked by men is much more likely now? Imagine a trans woman walking into a changing room with loads of blokes in it - what do gender critical people think is going to happen?
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They will have to go into male toilets because they are men or plan ahead which is not practical.
 
The Colonel said:
This is exactly what I say to friends who get frothy mouthed about trans in sports or immigrants. Yes there is something to address here but I then ask them how many times in your day to day lives do these things directly affect them. Silence.
It’s just a tool of the populist politician. It works on those whose minds just blow in the wind.
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when you see the ruling you have to ask what have they won or what do they think they have won? How will it be Policed? In reference to the populists you will note that today its been announced that state schools aren't inundated with requests for places by the 75k displaced pupils who it turns out were never there. Its all a grift - look whats going on in the States - get enough people angry but don't give them the fine details
 
Semper aggressus said:
Women that might have to share public loos or changing rooms with him.
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Where do people get changed or relieve themselves publicly? SWIM told me ladies use cubicles and men have an option. Festivals just have individual outlets as do many venues. It’s a nothing issue.
 
I referred to my daughters school earlier and the furies. She also has a lad who identifies as a girl and joins in their PE sessions. He gets changed with them and as she is hitting puberty she isnt comfortable with it at all
 
The Stockport Iniesta said:
You do know real Women don't want "trans women" anywhere near Female sports don't you?
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Two points to be made here

If a boy has hormone blockers and so dont go through puberty means they have no more strength or testorone than women born as women , they are on oestrogen and those who have gender reasignment have their bits removed that produce male hormones and that renders them as female as women born as women

Transwomen have been competing for years and very few have won gold medals so they do not have a big advantage do they

It is incredibly nuanced and not the click bait headlines that it is made out to be

Transwomen using disabled toilets is not the answer , they are not disabled and a disabled person needs to have access to them. Where are all the massive cases of trans attacking females in toilets ? Just one or two high profile cases and they were men pretending to be women

I need a lie down
 
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