UK supreme court ruling on legal definition of a woman

[moggymoz]

Most people obsessed about Trans people have probably never met one in real life, just get constant spoon fed from social media and right wing outlets.

My Wife has when in a Ladies changing room and the Blokes Bollocks were hanging out for everyone to see.

 

[Mon Autre]

I am transgender. I first realised that something was ‘wrong’ when I was 6 or 7. But I hid it from everyone because I believed that even my close family would reject me if they found out.


I struggled with it my entire life. I would have given anything not to be this way. I hated and despised myself all my life.
I could not have an intimate relationship with anyone because I could never be myself with another person. I never had real friends because my life was a lie, I was not the person they thought I was.

Transitioning and living as a woman was my worst nightmare. It would be the end of life as I knew it. I was convinced I would lose my family and what little friendship I had with people.

Unfortunately, you can only fight it for so long before it becomes impossible to go on. I went ahead and made the change. Suicide was a serious option because the alternative was so terrifying. I did not think I would have the strength to tell everyone the truth about myself and start living as a woman. I found the courage to do it by telling myself that I could always kill myself if it became too terrible. There were many times in the first couple of years that I almost reached that point. The three people that carried me through were all women. I would not be here today without their love and support. None of them were family members although my family were generally supportive.

I would never do anything to make women uncomfortable or afraid. I believe that is true of the vast majority of transwomen.

The ruling today scares me. I had genital surgery nine years ago. I do not have male genitalia. I can be raped in the same way that a biological woman can be raped yet I may find myself having to share male facilities. I undertand the anxiety that having someone who was born male in a female space can cause. I am terrified of being the female in an all male space.

Trans people are not monsters. We did not arrive from space in the last few years, we just became more visible. Trans people have always been here and always will be no matter how many laws are passed against us. We have no choice. We are what we are.

I am not a sexual predator or rapist. I am just another human being like all of you. I want to live my life in peace. I deserve to do that just as much as each of you do.

Thanks for takkng the time to share your experience on a day where I expect you've had a lot of different emotions to deal with. I hope you're getting lots of strength and support from those around you.

There's also a lot of great organisations like Trans Mutual Aid mcr to lean on too if everything is feeling a lot!

 

[HelloCity]

If I were you I'd stick to the 'North Stand Construction' Thread, at least you talk some sence on there.

One more thread than you then :)

 

[blueinsa]

Thank you for sharing that with us , the abuse trans people get is disgusting. What people need to realise that nobody in their right mind would come out as trans if they didnt believe they were in the wrong body. Why would you expose yourself to such hatred if you had any doubts about who you are

I find some posters repeating trans women are men and should be feared frankly pathetic

Yet just yesterday you made it quite clear that disabled toilets which by their very nature are gender neutral were for disabled people only and you wasn’t in favour of Transgender individuals using them.

It seems like a sensible solution to use a facility that is largely unused most of the time, is already gender neutral by its nature and I’m sure you have nothing to fear as that would be pathetic yes?

I’m also trying to find any post that explicitly states transgender women are men and to be feared?

Think you just made that up tbh?

 

[Mon Autre]

Is it possible some men dress as women for a sexual thrill?

You're describing the phenomenon of autogynephilia here. It's a controversial subject as it is often conflated with transgender identities.

I think people do all kinds of niche things and experiment with lots of different identities for sexual thrills and there are men who do this. So yes, I think this happens but men dressing as women for sexual thrills are not transgender women.

 

[moggymoz]

One more thread than you then :)

I'll give you that... ;)

 

[hilts]

I think it's the truth for a lot more people than just myself. Like I said, trans people live among us - in toilets, changing rooms, and everywhere else - without us even knowing. I know that thought scares some people, but I would hope that it comforts the majority, just in the sense that we can't know every stranger's sex at birth and yet we get through life with that not really mattering.

Anyway, I don't think you need to be so antagonistic about this. The kind of tone you're using in your posts is part of the reason why this debate has fallen to such low depths. My first post in this thread was just asking questions to the people on the "winning" side this week and all I've done since is try to engage and put my point of view across. I know it's easy to get angry over the internet but please try to compose yourself.

You're trying to preach without logical back up, you ain't engaging at all.

 

[mrbelfry]

, I think this happens but men dressing as women for sexual thrills are not transgender women.

I think this is a crucial point. What makes someone truly trans and how do you test for it? If a trans woman can be a women why can't a pervert be a trans woman? Some non-binary people identify as trans and some don't. So if we need a working solution for toilets do we not also need one for who can call themselves trans?

When we use the word trans we are not all referring to the same thing

 

[hilts]

As I've said in my earlier post, I'm removing myself from this thread because I'd just be repeating myself RE: the trans issues. But I did just want to apologise if what I said to you wasn't clear - I'm not saying I said anything to you about your wife helping me through a bullying episode (if only because that's not what happened), just that she was a great teacher who I remembered. Reading my post back I can see why you thought that though - being honest, I was just bringing up that my experience with my fourth year teacher was awful based on a post I made in a different thread the other day that I thought you might have seen, that's all. I really wasn't trying to beat you with any stick. I don't want to do that.

It's some drawn out withdrawal you're doing:-)

 

[hilts]

same with this?

Can I presume Harry Potter is your neighbour?

 

[HelloCity]

 

[mrbelfry]

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I appreciate this is a very crude reply but that headline is irresponsible. Would you not welcome trans men being searched by male officers?

 

[Mon Autre]

I think this is a crucial point. What makes someone truly trans and how do you test for it? If a trans woman can be a women why can't a pervert be a trans woman? Some non-binary people identify as trans and some don't. So if we need a working solution for toilets do we not also need one for who can call themselves trans?

When we use the word trans we are not all referring to the same thing

I don't really feel the need to test whether or not a trans woman is a sex offender any more than I do anybody else. Unfortunately those sorts of people tend to out themselves (and don't need to dress up as somebody else to do so)

A non-binary person might not choose to use the word trans to describe themselves but I think most would agree it's an identity that sits underneath the "trans" umbrella term. Same as how homosexual people have different terms to describe themselves. I don't think anyone is asking for a toilet exclusively for trans people though.

 

[mrbelfry]

I don't really feel the need to test whether or not a trans woman is a sex offender any more than I do anybody else. Unfortunately those sorts of people tend to out themselves (and don't need to dress up as somebody else to do so)

A non-binary person might not choose to use the word trans to describe themselves but I think most would agree it's an identity that sits underneath the "trans" umbrella term. Same as how homosexual people have different terms to describe themselves. I don't think anyone is asking for a toilet exclusively for trans people though.

I apologies I must have made my question unclear.

You said men dressing up as women for sexual thrills are not transgender women. If trans people are self identified why can't that man identify as a trans woman?

For clarity I'm not saying trans people are perverts I'm asking how we avoid a new true Scotsman fallacy

 

[fulabeer]

As someone on the opposite side of this, I really just want to know... What are transgender women expected to do now? I hear so much from gender critical people that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's single sex spaces. Okay, fine. But... where are they supposed to go? The ruling has been made so I want answers now.

The obvious response is "the correct dressing rooms/toilets", etc.

But if the argument from gender critical people is that men are inherently violent creatures who can't be controlled, then how does the world become a safer place by telling (as gender critical people see it) effeminate men to go into a men's changing room? Surely that just makes that person a target for violence from their own sex?

I really am willing to listen because I feel like I've never had an answer, and the lack of answers just makes me think that the end goal among gender critical types is for transgender women to not exist at all.

What do disabled people do when they need the toilet and there are no disabled toilets?
It is fair that all places don't offer disabled toilets? The truth is life isn't fair.
Chose places to visit that offer ether trans/disabled/individual toilets. If it is commercially an advantage more businesses will offer these type of toilets.

The truth is trans women are not female. They never have been female and never will be female.
To demand that society play along with a delusion when there are real dangers and advantages (sport) being committed is very wrong.
And trans is a delusion. Claiming to be something you are not is a delusion.
I've been around trans for a very long time. I have friends who have transitioned. I have some who are considering it. I have discussed it at length with them, and even they don't understand/agree all the implications/problems.
The overriding thing is that they know it is an illusion. Women don't accept they are really female and neither do most men. Most people play along, but it can be in a patronising way. In a work environment, there always seems to be an elephant in the room. Then there is the "is she-isn't she" thing.

That is not to say that trans people don't deserve understanding, protection and legal rights.
I've seen the ugly side of the discrimination/threats they face. They are mostly going through a hard time within themselves and don't need the shit often thrown at them. Most just want to get on with their lives with as little fuss as possible. This is spoilt by a few who take advantage, and some who are just mentally unstable and just happen to be also trans.
Personally, i'm not bothered if somebody is trans. I pick friends for many reasons. But it can be a problem when they are obviously not female. Fine down the gay village, not so much in a local pub. I wouldn't look great in a tight fitting t-shirt, they not so much with a beard and a dress!

So like the facilities for disabled, it has taken time for society to adapt to their needs, so it will take time to adapt to trans needs.
This was about protecting women's rights. Trans will just have to continue the fight for their own needs.

 

[bluethrunthru]

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Trans "people"? So women transitioning to men but remaining a biological woman in the eyes of the law will be STRIP searched by males? The Maldives will be overrun by holidaying UK lawyers on the proceeds of the fees from cases they win

 

[jma]

You've mentioned a couple of times in this thread that your daughter goes to school with two kids who have animal alter egos. Even as someone who casually knows a couple of adults who are furries, I doubt that the kids in your daughter's school have a full understanding of what they're dealing with, but... kids are kids. If you can't experiment and explore your identity as a teenager then when can you? Not everyone needs to experiment, but some do.

But anyway, my point is - have you ever chatted to these kids' parents in the playground to try and work out why their kids feel the way they do? Has your daughter ever spoken to them in school and tried to learn about how those kids feel? If you don't want your daughter asking those questions - have you ever tried to see things from the point of view of those kids who think they're cats sometimes? It might be a little weird, sure, but it'll be less weird once you learn something about it.

I have no desire to get stuck into the main thrust of this thread, as the whole debate is too emotive and sometimes disrespectful in more than one way,

I will say that, based on this thread, you seem to be a considered and kind individual who obviously thinks deeply about such matters and seems motivated by empathy. That’s laudable and I would hope that anyone, from either side of this debate, can acknowledge that.

However, you must be smart enough to know that the position you have advocated there, regarding people who wish to be identified as cats, can only be damaging to any attempt to persuade others to accept and understand transgender people.

Just as there is an extreme at the other end of the argument, where ideology and hatred will be the only driving factors for some, exclusively shaping their views, a plea for people to speak to and understand people who believe that they are cats - even if motivated only by hoping for less misery and more happiness for “furies’ - and not view them as extremely confused individuals needing help will, for the foreseeable future, and possibly forever (or as far as we can project), be considered as ridiculous by most of society. Viewed as, basically, an embodiment of the extreme caricature of an argument that some on the other side use to argue against transgender people (The “what if someone wants to identify as a dinosaur” line that some take to ridicule)

I know it was in response to something that someone else brought up in the thread, but i would argue that to express that position on ‘furies’ can only damage your position on transgender people, as it appears to play straight into the dubious line that says some people are so far down a rabbit hole that they’ll go along with thinking that anyone can identify as any item, no matter how ludicrous. Any traction given to that can only damage the cause of those seeking to advance the cause of transgender people.

I know it’s not the main thrust of the thread but I think it’s an important point to make. It’s important not to view any side of this difficult debate as a caricature but that small branch off into an associated topic could easily boost those who wish to.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I'm thinking of offering my bespoke "Social, Emotional Learning" courses to Ric so that Bluemoon can "catch Up"

My values inform everything I do, if he doesn't like them I have others...

He can choose from....

1. Decolonise your Business
2. Indigenous Ways of Knowing.
3. My lived Experience.
4. Bring Your Whole Self to Work

Have you ever heard of the "Phallic Drift"? It's fascinating stuff....

But not every day....

Oh, by the way, go back 100 years or so and you'll find society was doing a bit of "catch up", only it was eugenics that was in vogue, Woodrow Wilson was a big fan, eugenics was the inexorable march of progress for humanity back then, but we now know there was nothing inexorable about it. if society needs to "catch up" with anything, it means someone of something is driving it in a direction it doesn't necessarily want to go, and changing tack from hard sell to softly softly might not be the solution, because, and this might come as a shock, there's nothing inexorable about gender ideology either.

Maybe, just maybe, on the odd occasion, society wakes up and realises they're being sold a bag of shite.

And here in the UK yesterday was a wake up call.

So much bile.

I’m merely saying that there is not a significant enough strata of society seemingly in support of trans right at present and that because they are so far ahead of society, it would have to catch up to give trans people anything like the treatment they desire.

As I said, I’m all in favor of gender neutral bathrooms, but wouldn’t want my daughter in the changing rooms with a man, castrated or not.

Society is in a perpetual state of change, so who knows where we will be in 5, 10, 25 yrs, or what will pass for “enlightenment” then?

 

[Kirkstall Blue]

As someone on the opposite side of this, I really just want to know... What are transgender women expected to do now? I hear so much from gender critical people that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's single sex spaces. Okay, fine. But... where are they supposed to go? The ruling has been made so I want answers now.

The obvious response is "the correct dressing rooms/toilets", etc.

But if the argument from gender critical people is that men are inherently violent creatures who can't be controlled, then how does the world become a safer place by telling (as gender critical people see it) effeminate men to go into a men's changing room? Surely that just makes that person a target for violence from their own sex?

I really am willing to listen because I feel like I've never had an answer, and the lack of answers just makes me think that the end goal among gender critical types is for transgender women to not exist at all.

I’m not sure there is an answer other than the creation of a third public space for transgender, in fact transgender exists so provision will have to be made. Gender is decided at birth there are babies born with any combination of XY a friend of ours had a baby born a boy but because she didn’t have the right equipment she was changed to a girl at birth.

Transgender will have to keep fighting for their human rights the judge said your rights are unaffected by this legislation, he also asked that the women who brought the case, not to celebrate and what did they go out and do, jumping for joy outside the court.

 

[blue is best]

Hi Bob
I'll answer because I know you have a genuine interest in this.

Trans people did indeed live among us for many years without us knowing.

I think the recent issue now is that it's becoming much more aggressive from those with a political/activist agenda.

Speech for example. It might not seem important but I am NOT a "CIS" woman, I'm a woman. That's it: no diminishing my sex or my identity, thanks all the same.

Sports; Let girls and women compete on an equal playing field. Again, not much to ask.

NHS; Allow clear language that is not ambiguous/convuluted and people can understand.

Puberty Blockers; now I know most Trans people may not be a part of promoting this but activism around this whole horrendous, almost dystopian agenda is something future generations may look back on and despair.
I'll tell you now....if anyone encouraged a child to do that then they need putting in prison.

This whole argument, as I've said before, isn't just about toilets etc. It was becoming much more insidious.
Because that is what fringe activists do.

For what it's worth, as you know, I'm live and let live. Unless it encroaches on myself and kids.

I am also a woman, the first time I came across cis woman I had to google it to find out it’s meaning, I like you object to being referred to as cis, I am quite happy just being a woman.