VAR Discussion Thread | 2024/25

[TheBeautifulGame]

Respect to Andy for speaking his mind here and of course he makes a pertinent point. But for him to preface his remarks with "I might get in trouble here" suggests that there would seem to be some kind of a risk for former players to speak out against VAR.

What would cause Andy Cole to "get in trouble" for speaking out against VAR? Are former players being silenced or told to keep a tight lip on speaking out against VAR? Surely anyone should have the freedom of thought and expression to speak to anything that would be affecting the game. This to me would seem to be one of the biggest hurdles as it pertains to getting VAR out of football. If those with influence and a connection to the sport are unable or worried about speaking out against it, then it would be hard to gain the momentum required to fight to return football to normal and get VAR out once and for all.

 

[waspish]

I didn't respond in error. You said the goal was correctly chalked off. I am trying to understand on what basis you think that.

Because the PL SAOT, which is supposed to be the most advanced system out there, has a 5 cm tolerance built into it to take into account inaccuracies and give some element of doubt to the attacker. So, if the Arsenal goal was offside by less than 5 cm it would have been allowed by the PL SAOT because of its tolerance, even though it was disallowed by UEFA SAOT which is supposedly accurate to the mm (which I very much doubt).

That seems like a problem to me. And has been a problem for every toenail offside decision in UEFA (and FIFA) competitions since SAOT was introduced. Some of which had significant repercussions in terms of result.

Hence the question to you, who watched the game, if the offside decision was 5 cm or less.

Wondered why premier waited to use the auto offside so I looked up on Ai>>

Yes, the Premier League uses a different semi-automated offside technology (SAOT) system compared to UEFA. Here are the key differences based on available information:

### Premier League SAOT System
- **Implementation**: Introduced in the 2024/25 season, with live operation starting in Matchweek 32 (April 12-14, 2025), after testing in the FA Cup.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)[](https://www.premierleague.com/news/4273447)
- **Technology Provider**: Developed in collaboration with Genius Sports, using computer vision cameras installed in every Premier League stadium.[](https://www.premierleague.com/news/4082349)[](https://www.premierleague.com/news/4256036)
- **Cameras**: Utilizes up to 30 cameras per stadium, operating at 100 frames per second (twice the speed of typical broadcast cameras).[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)[](https://www.premierleague.com/news/4256036)
- **Data Points**: Tracks up to 10,000 surface "mesh" data points per player for precise positioning.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)[](https://www.premierleague.com/news/4256036)
- **Ball Sensor**: Does not use a chip in the ball, unlike FIFA’s system, due to the Premier League’s contract with Nike and patent issues with Adidas (used by FIFA/UEFA).[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)[](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12589707/Premier-Leagues-plans-automatic-offside-VAR.html)
- **Tolerance Level**: Retains a "tolerance level" (approximately 5cm), giving the "benefit of the doubt" to attackers to avoid marginal "toenail" offside calls. This is unique to the Premier League among SAOT-using leagues.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)
- **Visualization**: Generates 3D automated graphics for in-stadium and broadcast displays, avoiding overlay with broadcast footage for quicker decision visuals.[](https://www.premierleague.com/news/4256036)

### UEFA SAOT System
- **Implementation**: First used in the Champions League from the 2022/23 season group stage and in competitions like the UEFA Super Cup and Euro 2024.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)[](https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/37630682/champions-league-use-semi-automated-offside-technology-group-stage)
- **Technology Provider**: Initially developed with Adidas and Kinexon, though the Champions League uses a non-chip system similar to the Premier League’s for regular matches.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)[](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12589707/Premier-Leagues-plans-automatic-offside-VAR.html)
- **Cameras**: Employs 10-12 cameras per stadium, operating at 50 frames per second (slower than the Premier League’s).[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)
- **Data Points**: Maps 29 data points per player, significantly fewer than the Premier League’s 10,000.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)
- **Ball Sensor**: For major tournaments like Euro 2024, UEFA uses a chip in the ball (Adidas-manufactured) for precise kick-point detection, but not in the Champions League, where a non-chip system is used.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)[](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12589707/Premier-Leagues-plans-automatic-offside-VAR.html)
- **Tolerance Level**: Does not use a tolerance level, meaning it makes calls on the most marginal offsides, unlike the Premier League’s approach.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)
- **Visualization**: Also provides automated graphics, but the Premier League’s system is noted for producing higher-quality visuals due to more cameras and data points.[](https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/39920409/premier-league-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)

### Key Distinctions
1. **Precision and Speed**: The Premier League’s system is designed to be more precise, with more cameras (30 vs. 10-12), faster frame rates (100 vs. 50 fps), and significantly more data points (10,000 vs. 29).[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)
2. **Ball Chip**: UEFA’s system for major tournaments includes a chip in the ball, while the Premier League avoids this due to its Nike contract and uses alternative software for kick-point detection.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)[](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12589707/Premier-Leagues-plans-automatic-offside-VAR.html)
3. **Tolerance Level**: The Premier League’s unique tolerance level aims to reduce controversial marginal calls, while UEFA’s system enforces stricter offside decisions.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)
4. **Development Philosophy**: The Premier League developed its own system to be “future-proof” and more accurate, avoiding reliance on FIFA/UEFA’s chip-based technology. This was a deliberate choice, as noted by Premier League Chief Football Officer Tony Scholes.[](https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13339920/premier-league-semi-automated-offside-to-be-introduced-in-top-flight-on-april-12-following-fa-cup-tests-earlier-in-season)[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/43689769/premier-league-wants-semi-automated-var-offside-season)

### Why the Difference?
- **Contractual Constraints**: The Premier League’s long-standing deal with Nike prevented adopting FIFA/UEFA’s chip-based system, as Adidas holds the patent for the ball sensor.[](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12589707/Premier-Leagues-plans-automatic-offside-VAR.html)
- **Customization**: The Premier League aimed for a bespoke system tailored to its needs, prioritizing precision and fan experience (e.g., better graphics and tolerance level).[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/43689769/premier-league-wants-semi-automated-var-offside-season)
- **Testing and Timing**: The Premier League delayed implementation to ensure reliability, opting for extensive testing rather than adopting UEFA’s system outright.[](https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/41468887/premier-league-delays-semi-automated-offside-var-2025)[](https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13308478/semi-automated-offside-technology-to-be-used-for-fa-cup-fifth-round-in-english-football-first)

### Current Sentiment
Posts on X reflect some frustration with the Premier League’s decision to develop a hybrid system rather than adopting UEFA/FIFA’s established SAOT, with concerns about delays in decision-making (e.g., an 8-minute offside call). However, the Premier League insists its system is more advanced and suited for long-term use.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/43689769/premier-league-wants-semi-automated-var-offside-season)

In summary, while both systems aim to automate offside decisions, the Premier League’s SAOT is distinct in its higher camera count, faster frame rate, greater data points, lack of a ball chip, and unique tolerance level, making it a more customized and arguably more precise system compared to UEFA’s.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)[](https://www.premierleague.com/news/4256036)

 

[BlueHammer85]

Respect to Andy for speaking his mind here and of course he makes a pertinent point. But for him to preface his remarks with "I might get in trouble here" suggests that there would seem to be some kind of a risk for former players to speak out against VAR.

What would cause Andy Cole to "get in trouble" for speaking out against VAR? Are former players being silenced or told to keep a tight lip on speaking out against VAR? Surely anyone should have the freedom of thought and expression to speak to anything that would be affecting the game. This to me would seem to be one of the biggest hurdles as it pertains to getting VAR out of football. If those with influence and a connection to the sport are unable or worried about speaking out against it, then it would be hard to gain the momentum required to fight to return football to normal and get VAR out once and for all.

You don’t half live in a conspiracy world, former players are not being silenced to talk about VAR, it was just a turn of phrase.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

You don’t half live in a conspiracy world, former players are not being silenced to talk about VAR, it was just a turn of phrase.

So he's not going to "get in trouble" then, good to know. It's important that everyone is free and clear to speak their minds on matters relating to football, especially if we're going to get this quagmire out of football.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

In summary, while both systems aim to automate offside decisions, the Premier League’s SAOT is distinct in its higher camera count, faster frame rate, greater data points, lack of a ball chip, and unique tolerance level, making it a more customized and arguably more precise system compared to UEFA’s.[](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/44038727/premier-league-fa-cup-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)[](https://www.premierleague.com/news/4256036)

There is some confusion to this comparison. The summary suggests that the PL's SAOT is distinct compared to the CL, but both the PL and the CL do not use a chip in the ball (outside of major UEFA tournaments). Since we were evaluating the metrics and the technology in use for the marginal offsides goal that was chalked off in the Arsenal PSG match, many of those so-called distinct differences may not have been applicable to that match.

As that was a CL match in a Premier League stadium, thus surely they wouldn't remove cameras (the # of iPhones) for CL matches in PL stadiums, i.e. the Arsenal match vs PSG. By deductive reasoning should we be under the impression that the reduced # of cameras (iPhones) in the CL would only apply to CL matches in non-PL stadiums? If that were the case, then would that mean that the CL would be using the PL technology in a match in which a PL club is the home team vs less accurate technology in CL matches in non-PL stadiums? If so, then the CL would be using different technology and different standards of accuracy depending on where the match is being played.

And how about the frame rate? If iPhones are used in PL stadiums at 50fps, then what devices would they be using in the CL that would only have 25 FPS? Not iPhones? I'm afraid that the summary there doesn't do much to help us understand how the process or accuracy in a marginal offside decision like the one in Arsenal PSG would differ from a normal Premier League match.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

Rooney's transplanted hair has more integrity than VAR.



Lets not forget that all three were in complete agreement to get rid in this interview. They are each legends of our sport. I don't know what kind of forces behind the scenes are keeping VAR going, but it is without a doubt a joy-robbing anti-fan agenda that has been allowed to run its course for far too long.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

You don’t half live in a conspiracy world, former players are not being silenced to talk about VAR, it was just a turn of phrase.

No pundit is allowed to say "the ref is a cheat", they cant even imply they are cheating. TV contracts would not be handed out on that basis. Even if it isnt written into the contract those things happen. Its a murkier world than you would think.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

This is a brilliant article that makes some important points as it pertains to the Arsenal PSG "goal" that was so callously ruled out by the anti-joy brigade :

Arsenal 'goal' the latest example of VAR madness

Why do commentators pretend VAR does not exist? The phenomenon was front and central at Arsenal...

www.football365.com

Some key excerpts :

Point is, it didn’t really feel like a Can’t Even Celebrate A Goal Properly These Days game’s gone moment, right up until it was.

It sure didn't, and for that brief moment we were reminded of what football is supposed to be like and feel like. But that unbridled joy and euphoria wasn't allowed to stand for very long.

But there was absolutely no commentator response to those early replays that even hinted at the possibility this was anything other than a definite goal, and that just doesn’t feel quite good enough.

It might mess with the theatrical flourish of your post-goal spiel, but it’s surely your primary job as a commentator to make sure everyone knows what’s going on.

^^ You wanna know why. because for that one moment everyone remembered what normal football was like and how spontaneity is supposed to feel. The commentators were so swept up in the moment that they forgot about VAR for a moment or two and due to how brilliant of a goal it was, they couldn't bring themselves to be the bearer of bad news yet again, not for that one, it was too brilliant and too wrong to have to then go down the VAR rabbit hole for the millionth time. They couldn't bring themselves to accept all this joy is about to be erased through the long and painstaking process that we have all grown so accustomed to.

Maybe in that brief moment of euphoria those commentators felt the joy of goals from days gone by and were reminded of what it felt like and tried to stay in that moment for as long as they possibly could, until the reality of the soul robbing joy erasing goal snatchers started to do their thing.

And maybe the most important part of the article is this which is what is so dreadful about this whole ordeal :

It is, in fact, part of the core problem with VAR that will only get worse; the more these goals are disallowed, the more likely we all just stop initially celebrating and enjoying goals at all as we hurtle ever further down a road that seeks to sap all joy from football’s most basic and fundamental deliverer of joy.

Anotherwords, until VAR is taken out of football, this only gets worse over time. Because every time this sort of thing happens, fans become less likely to celebrate passionately moving forward. No one wants to look like a fool.

For that one moment, they celebrated like it was normal football again. But the powers that be wouldn't allow that to stand. They had to erase because they hate joy. They hate fans having fun and enjoying football. And that's the truth. Don't delude yourself for a moment thinking otherwise. Thinking this is all part of some process that we're just too stupid to understand and they're the smart ones. No, no, my friends, they're ones who are suffocating football, not us. We want the joy back. We need the exhileration of goals to return and to know when that ball hits the back of the net, it's time to go mental. And no one, not from some dystopian ivory tower could ever stop that.

But passively, we've allowed this VAR monster to take over our sport. We've allow the corrupt overlords to convince us that our joy isn't as important as their agenda and their money making scheme, if you can ever call it that.

That, though, is a different argument. Sure, plenty of us might prefer to live in a world where VAR wasn’t around to ruin things in the name of so-called progress, but we all know that isn’t the world in which we currently reside. And commentators really do have a duty to commentate on the game as it exists on our actual cursed timeline.

We need that world to return, simple as that. Nothing short of that will ever be acceptable.

 

[BlueHammer85]

No pundit is allowed to say "the ref is a cheat", they cant even imply they are cheating. TV contracts would not be handed out on that basis. Even if it isnt written into the contract those things happen. Its a murkier world than you would think.

Rightly so, unless they have proof, no pundit should be labelling a Ref a cheat based on some on field decisions they don’t agree with - there’s enough outrage and anger directed at officials even the odd death threat without wanting pundits accusing them of cheating.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

Rightly so, unless they have proof, no pundit should be labelling a Ref a cheat based on some on field decisions they don’t agree with - there’s enough outrage and anger directed at officials even the odd death threat without wanting pundits accusing them of cheating.

There's a reason why Andy Cole prefaced what he said with how that could get him in trouble. By whom? I'd like to know but that didn't just come out of his mouth for no reason. His genuine worry that what he was about to say could get him in trouble has legs. And you'd be naive to think otherwise. The VAR overloads are wholly invested in this corrupt system being here to stay. And they're spreading it like a cancer throughout the world. And unlike some would suggest, the idea that some have put out there to think that the further it spreads throughout the world, or the longer it goes on for, that it would be that much harder to stop it. No, no, no. In fact it's quite the opposite. Because in the early years the opposite excuse was used to keep it going. i.e. we gotta give it more time until they get it right, etc.

VAR isn't a genie in a bottle. VAR isn't toothpaste being pushed out of a tube. All that is needed to remove this anti-joy device is a consensus of those involved in the sport, fans, players, former players, administrators, managers, etc to come together and stand up for football. It would be a uniting and joyful event unlike any other. All that is needed is the willpower of those involved in the sport to do the right thing and return football to normal once and for all. No amount of excuses for why it can't be sacked, because we're too far into it, or because it's being rolled out in more countries can be allowed to convince us otherwise. That's besides the point. That's "propaganda" to silence opposition.

Everyone loves JOY. VAR is very clearly the anti-JOY. JOY is popular. Those that are hostile to joy are the enemies and that will never change.

 

[BlueHammer85]

There's a reason why Andy Cole prefaced what he said with how that could get him in trouble. By whom? I'd like to know but that didn't just come out of his mouth for no reason. His genuine worry that what he was about to say could get him in trouble has legs. And you'd be naive to think otherwise. The VAR overloads are wholly invested in this corrupt system being here to stay. And they're spreading it like a cancer throughout the world. And unlike some would suggest, the idea that some have put out there to think that the further it spreads throughout the world, or the longer it goes on for, that it would be that much harder to stop it. No, no, no. In fact it's quite the opposite. Because in the early years the opposite excuse was used to keep it going. i.e. we gotta give it more time until they get it right, etc.

VAR isn't a genie in a bottle. VAR isn't toothpaste being pushed out of a tube. All that is needed is a consensus to come together and stand up for football. All that is needed is the willpower of those involved in the sport to do the right thing and return football to normal once and for all. No amount of excuses for why it can't be sacked, because we're too far into it, or because it's being rolled out in more countries. That's besides the point. That's "propaganda" to silence opposition.

Everyone loves JOY. VAR is very clearly the anti-JOY. JOY is popular. Those that hostile to joy are the enemies and that will never change.

VAR is being criticized by current Managers, Players, pundits, ex players, media, forums constantly so i don't know why you think there's some massive cabal silencing everyone based on a off the cuff cliche from Andy Cole - simply not the case. I think they welcome criticism (as do i) in order to look at ways to improve the system.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

VAR is being criticized by current Managers, Players, pundits, ex players, media, forums constantly so i don't know why you think there's some massive cabal silencing everyone based on a off the cuff cliche from Andy Cole - simply not the case. I think they welcome criticism (as do i) in order to look at ways to improve the system.

I'm not alleging anything. I'm troubled and curious by that preemptive statement. Though the idea that a VAR cabal exists and is going well out of their way to play damage control for the system and to provide incentives to anyone who would speak highly against it wouldn't be that much of a stretch given what we've seen.

It's one thing for us fans to discuss this on a message board. It's another for former players or those on the world stage to put out a statement like Andy Cole so bravely did, but many wouldn't out of fear of being isolated by the pro-VAR brigade who is so heavily invested in maintaining and expanding all this. The pro-VARers, i.e. the FIFA President and his lackeys mainly, only collaborate with those who are 100% on board. That much is clear. If you're against VAR, you're not getting anywhere near the FIFA Headquarters.

It's not a conspiracy to see how this has been rolled out and to see the fraudulent damage control machine arm of VAR continuing to attempt to keep this pantomime going for as long as they can. The reality is Hammer that they're pretty much out of excuses at this point or reasons to further justify this failed system. For years and years it was, give it another year, they need more time to figure it all out. We're approaching a decade of corruption and agony. We as fans deserve to be able to enjoy football again, and not have to have the moments we live for robbed from us on a continual basis any longer.

 

[BlueHammer85]

I'm not alleging anything. I'm troubled and curious by that preemptive statement. Though the idea that a VAR cabal exists and is going well out of their way to play damage control for the system and to provide incentives to anyone who would speak highly against it wouldn't be that much of a stretch given what we've seen.

It's one thing for us fans to discuss this on a message board. It's another for former players or those on the world stage to put out a statement like Andy Cole so bravely did, but many wouldn't out of fear of being isolated by the pro-VAR brigade who is so heavily invested in maintaining and expanding all this. The pro-VARers, i.e. the FIFA President and his lackeys mainly, only collaborate with those who are 100% on board. That much is clear. If you're against VAR, you're not getting anywhere near the FIFA Headquarters.

It's not a conspiracy to see how this has been rolled out and to see the fraudulent damage control machine arm of VAR continuing to attempt to keep this pantomime going for as long as they can. The reality is Hammer that they're pretty much out of excuses at this point or reasons to further justify this failed system. For years and years it was, give it another year, they need more time to figure it all out. We're approaching a decade of corruption and agony. We as fans deserve to be able to enjoy football again, and not have to have the moments we live for robbed from us on a continual basis any longer.

Well i think you need to let that 'troubled and curious' preemptive statment go, there is no end to former players criticizing VAR, no one is being silenced.

Ex-Premier League star slams "embarrassing" VAR and calls for it to be scrapped

In an exclusive interview, ex-Leeds left-back Ian Harte has discussed VAR, introducing former players into refereeing and whether the technology should be scrapped altogether

www.mirror.co.uk

VAR vote: 'Get rid of it or get better' - Anthony Gordon hits out at VAR

Newcastle forward Anthony Gordon said he "doesn't understand the point" of having Video Assistant Referees (VAR) in football, with Premier League clubs poised to vote on rejecting the technology.

www.bbc.co.uk

Andy Robertson warns VAR is making people fall out of love with football

Andy Robertson, who conceded a penalty in Liverpool’s game against Brighton after VAR intervened, says it is affecting players

www.theguardian.com

Alan Shearer explains why he thinks VAR is to blame for players getting injured

Match of the Day pundit Alan Shearer has spoken about the correlation between the introduction of VAR and lengthy injury lists for teams in the Premier League

www.mirror.co.uk

Neil Lennon makes VAR idea pitch as former Celtic boss insists ex-pro's needed

NEIL LENNON has called on former players to be used in VAR studios. The ex-Celtic boss spoke out after Brendan Rodgers blasted the “incompetence” of the refereeing team at Tynecastle on Sunday. Bot…

www.thescottishsun.co.uk

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

Well i think you need to let that 'troubled and curious' preemptive statment go, there is no end to former players criticizing VAR, no one is being silenced.

Ex-Premier League star slams "embarrassing" VAR and calls for it to be scrapped

In an exclusive interview, ex-Leeds left-back Ian Harte has discussed VAR, introducing former players into refereeing and whether the technology should be scrapped altogether

www.mirror.co.uk

VAR vote: 'Get rid of it or get better' - Anthony Gordon hits out at VAR

Newcastle forward Anthony Gordon said he "doesn't understand the point" of having Video Assistant Referees (VAR) in football, with Premier League clubs poised to vote on rejecting the technology.

www.bbc.co.uk

Andy Robertson warns VAR is making people fall out of love with football

Andy Robertson, who conceded a penalty in Liverpool’s game against Brighton after VAR intervened, says it is affecting players

www.theguardian.com

Alan Shearer explains why he thinks VAR is to blame for players getting injured

Match of the Day pundit Alan Shearer has spoken about the correlation between the introduction of VAR and lengthy injury lists for teams in the Premier League

www.mirror.co.uk

Neil Lennon makes VAR idea pitch as former Celtic boss insists ex-pro's needed

NEIL LENNON has called on former players to be used in VAR studios. The ex-Celtic boss spoke out after Brendan Rodgers blasted the “incompetence” of the refereeing team at Tynecastle on Sunday. Bot…

www.thescottishsun.co.uk

And Hammer, what is your reaction to all those who have been speaking out against it? Don't you find it troubling that we have a system that so many former players, managers, etc are so dead set against it?

How could something this unpopular and problematic be allowed to continue? Not to mention the incredible expense of the whole charade.

 

[BlueHammer85]

And Hammer, what is your reaction to all those who have been speaking out against it? Don't you find it troubling that we have a system that so many former players, managers, etc are so dead set against it?

How could something this unpopular and problematic be allowed to continue? Not to mention the incredible expense of the whole charade.

I see and read all the criticism, i side with loads of it, I've stated my feelings against it over and over but i will always make the case for tech help for referees rather than scrapping it and going back to officiating was those years before VAR.

 

[Blueknows]

I see and read all the criticism, i side with loads of it, I've stated my feelings against it over and over but i will always make the case for tech help for referees rather than scrapping it and going back to officiating was those years before VAR.

Main issue for me is who decides whats a clear and obvious error and what constitutes clear and obvious ?

 

[BlueHammer85]

Main issue for me is who decides whats a clear and obvious error and what constitutes clear and obvious ?

It's always open to interpretation but its what fans have demanded, we can all use common sense to know roughly what constitutes as a clear and obvious, it gives a ref the chance to have a second look and decide, I'm all for that - however, there will always be the odd fuck up and 'wrong' decision - VAR can reduce the 'wrong' decisions but never make every outcome completely flawless. I can live with that, i understand why others can't.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Can't wait to see Tierney fuck us over tonight.

 

[TheBeautifulGame]

VAR revolt in Norway :

Inside Scandinavia’s VAR revolt – featuring walkouts, silences and fishcakes

One corner of Europe is taking a stand against the video assistant referee system - but why? And what impact could it have?

www.nytimes.com

“We won’t give up,” says Kristian, a bearded Valerenga fan standing defiantly outside the Intility Arena. “We want to be the first country to remove this disease. Then other countries will realise VAR can be defeated.”



It is the first weekend of Norway’s football season and, inside the stadium of Oslo’s biggest club, the stand where Valerenga’s most boisterous supporters congregate is completely empty as the game kicks off.

Thousands remain outside, refusing to enter until the 15-minute mark as part of a series of co-ordinated protests involving fans from every club in Norway’s top flight, the Eliteserien, as well as others from the division below.

It is a different scene in the away end, where the supporters of Viking are using another tactic to signal their hostility towards the video assistant referee system (VAR), which uses an official watching television replays away from the stadium to review significant on-field decisions. Viking fans take their seats but remain completely silent for the first 15 minutes.

All that can be heard are the shouts of the players, an occasional blow of the referee’s whistle or the thud of boot against ball. “Nei Til VAR!” reads the banner in Valerenga’s deserted Ostblokka stand. Translation: ‘No To VAR!’.
An empty stand at Valerenga as fans protest against VAR (Daniel Taylor/The Athletic)

The previous day, with the snowy peaks of Drammen visible in the distance, Stromsgodset’s match against Rosenborg got the new season underway with a silent protest of their own. Both sets of fans took part. No songs, no cheering, just virtual silence until the signal arrived after 15 minutes.

Rosenborg’s fans gathered behind a banner — “NFF Mafia” — that made it clear what they thought about the Norwegian Football Federation. Lampposts outside the stadium were decorated with stickers showing the “Hater VAR” (‘hate VAR’) message. A banner held up by Stromsgodset fans spelt it out another way: “FCK VAR”.

“Our supporters who are against VAR have the right to express their feelings,” Alfred Johansson, Rosenborg’s head coach, tells The Athletic. “It’s much better this way — a quiet 15 minutes — than other forms of action. Because we also know what it’s like when a game has to be stopped, or even cancelled, because of protests.”
Rosenborg fans make their feelings clear (Daniel Taylor/The Athletic)

In July last year, Rosenborg’s game against Lillestrom was abandoned when fans threw smoke bombs, tennis balls and — no kidding — fishcakes on the pitch. Other games in Norway’s 16-team Eliteserien have been targeted in similar ways.

This season, the fan groups have decided they will not actively disrupt games but the anger is real in a country where members run the football clubs and many feel VARs were brought in without a proper consultation process.

In January, the 32 clubs in Norway’s top two divisions voted 19-13 in favour of a motion for “the discontinuation of VAR as soon as possible”.

Critics accuse the review system of being unreliable and prone to human error, causing unnecessary delays, disrupting the flow of matches and, perhaps worst of all, often ruining the spontaneous joy that football’s most beautiful moment — a goal — is supposed to bring.

What seemed like a landmark victory, however, has not led to any changes. Instead, the NFF held a national assembly on March 1 for all 450 of its member clubs, all the way down to grassroots level, and they voted 321 to 129 against abolishing the technology. Anger has peaked since.

“We were hopeful we could get rid of VAR,” says Sebastian Hytten, leader of Valerenga’s Klanen fan group. “But it wasn’t a surprise the NFF worked so hard to keep it because, for them, it was a matter of honour. If they had lost the battle, they would have lost honour. They would have faced accusations that the supporters had taken over.”

The backlash against the VAR system can be felt in many ways in this part of Scandinavia.

One reminder for Lise Klaveness, president of the NFF, came outside her house in Nordstrand, a suburb south of Oslo.

“Maybe I had parked my car a little too far out,” she says. “Someone put a note on my windscreen to joke about how my car was parked and ‘it needs to go to VAR’ to decide what to do about it. Really funny.”

Klaveness, a lawyer and a former Norway international footballer, can laugh as she admits she has no idea who it was. But it hasn’t always been so amusing since it became clear her attitude to VARs had changed.

“I didn’t like VAR when it came in. I was a pundit in Russia at the 2018 World Cup and it was the first time VAR was used in an international championship. It was disturbing. We didn’t understand it, why we had to wait such a long time for decisions. It felt like disruption. People said it worked well but that was not the feeling the footballers and pundits had.”

Lise Klaveness, the head of the Norweigan FA, has been criticised for her support of VAR (Daniel Taylor/The Athletic)

Australia’s A-League became the first professional league to introduce VARs in 2017, followed by MLS in the United States later that year. Since then, almost every major league and competition in world football has adopted the technology. Yet, rather than removing controversy, it has led to anger, disillusionment and fierce criticism.

What nobody would have imagined, however, was that the most militant and organised mobilisation of VAR’s opponents would involve a nation not usually associated with dissent or dissatisfaction (the World Population Review ranked Norway as the seventh-happiest country in the world).

The story, for example, about the Stromsgodset player who had to take a VAR-awarded penalty while his club’s supporters, directly behind the goal, were singing, “F*** VAR”.

There was the walkout by Stabaek fans against Viking, directly after kick-off, and the tragicomedy that they missed a goal that was, after a VAR review, ruled out for handball. “Vi var her,” read the banner they left behind in a deserted stand (‘We were here’).

Valerenga fans disrupted one match by throwing a selection of pastries on the pitch to signify the alleged culture of coffee and croissants in NFF’s planning meetings.

Or how about Lillestrom’s trip to Rosenborg in 2023 when they were awarded a VAR-assisted, stoppage-time penalty to win 2-1 in the most dramatic circumstances?

“Our fans had travelled an hour’s flight or an eight-hour drive to go to that game,” says Hogner Trym, a Lillestrom fan and podcaster who campaigns against the VAR system through his Harde Mottak group (‘Hard Reception’). “Usually, we would go crazy, especially if you know the history between the two clubs. Here, we didn’t even celebrate. The attitude was, ‘This isn’t football’. The winning goal went in and we sat down.”

Lillestrom, relegated last season to Norway’s second tier, have taken a prominent role in the anti-VAR movement as the only club to vote against its introduction for the start of the 2023 season. The club have a sizeable number of what Klaveness calls “hardliners” and were also involved in the infamous fishcake game.

“That was the Rosenborg fans,” Trym clarifies. “Their idea was to throw fishcakes on the pitch so a flock of seagulls would come down and create a big scene. It didn’t go quite to plan but, in the end, the referee abandoned the match anyway.”

A match between Rosenborg and Lillestrom was abandoned in Norway after tennis balls, smoke bombs, and fishcakes were thrown onto the pitch

Both sets of fans are currently protesting against the use of VAR in the Norwegian top flight. pic.twitter.com/s6lPkCPvpc
— Football on TNT Sports (@footballontnt) July 23, 2024

Critics of the NFF accuse the federation of being rocked by the 19-13 vote and engineering a way around it by involving teams further down the pyramid who would never play in a match using VARs. Those clubs, it is widely accepted, were encouraged to vote in line with the NFF’s preference to keep the technology.

“A lot of people are angry and disappointed,” says Ole Kristian Sandvik, spokesman for the Norwegian Supporter Alliance. “People are disappointed with the decision itself. But we are angry about the process, too. Norwegian people don’t usually protest too often but this has sparked something to say, ‘Hey, this isn’t right, it isn’t working and — excuse my French — we f*****g hate VAR’.”

The nationwide protests, according to their organisers, were to “raise awareness that member democracy is under attack by anti-democratic forces who want to take control of Norwegian football”.

Klaveness has built her reputation as a principled and progressive leader who was willing to ask difficult questions of FIFA and UEFA, regardless of the consequences for herself, if it meant speaking up for what she believed was right, particularly when it came to the Qatar World Cup and the bidding process for the 2030 and 2034 tournaments.

Now, though, some of Norway’s leading anti-VAR groups and campaigners are questioning whether UEFA influenced the decision to continue with the technology. The accusation is that European football’s governing body might have leaned on Klaveness at a time she is being added to UEFA’s executive committee.

Klaveness, whose playing career included 73 appearances for her country, is stung by the suggestion. “Rumours will get roots,” she tells The Athletic. “But it has no roots in truth. We went to UEFA to ask them what arguments they had for or against VAR and they were clear they didn’t want to affect us. That conspiracy is not true and it’s very important this is not set as poison.”

Her argument is that it has been “a very fair, open and transparent process” and, though she doesn’t put it exactly in these terms, her supporters say the issue is more that the protestors have (a) lost the argument, (b) need someone to blame, and (c) have a different idea about what democracy means.

A working group, led by former Oslo mayor and ex-Valerenga board member Raymond Johansen, carried out a four-month review of VAR’s good and bad points. Many coaches and players confided they wanted to keep the technology but had not dared say it publicly. Many fans articulated the same. And the referees made it clear, in Klaveness’ words, that “it was the point of no return” as far as they were concerned.

“We talked to so many people,” she says. “I’ve heard this accusation that ‘we simply didn’t want to lose the argument’. It’s not even close to the truth. It’s about democracy and, in the end, it was clear the silent majority wanted to keep VAR.”

That is not going to wash with some of the protestors, who are planning another wave of coordinated action next weekend and unveiled protest banners when Norway’s national team played a World Cup 2026 qualifier in Moldova last week.

Yet Klaveness, unlike many football administrators, is a passionate advocate for freedom of speech. She also believes in the right to protest and makes the point that VAR-haters “are still allowed to think it’s bulls**t… we cannot turn against our supporters, we cannot hate the fact they are yelling. They have a very relevant argument”.

She is also determined to meet the relevant people head-on. Two days before the national assembly, Klaveness was at Carls, a pub in Oslo, to meet 200 anti-VAR campaigners from across the country. It was a beery audience and some frank views were exchanged. Did she win over everyone? No, but she maintains it was important to “show respect and demand respect back”. It was, she says, “Very intense.”

Three hours south of Oslo, heading across the border into Sweden, there is a vision of what might have been.

GAIS, one of three Gothenburg clubs in the Swedish top division, are playing AIK in a Monday night fixture at the Gamla Ullevi. It is the first week of the Allsvenskan season and VARs are not even an afterthought.

Sweden’s top flight is the only men’s league among Europe’s top 30 that refuses to use the technology. When a goal is scored, such as AIK’s 92nd-minute winner, it remains a goal. Nobody’s joy is short-lived. Players — and fans — can celebrate without worrying they will be made to look silly.

“It’s so beautiful (without VAR),” says Mikkjal Thomassen, the AIK head coach and former Faroe Islands international, reflecting on his team’s late and dramatic 1-0 victory. “It’s so unspoilt. I’m just a guest in Sweden, but I think it’s a magical decision by Swedish football, even though it’s a little contradictory to where the central organisations are heading in football. Our supporters are really clear that they don’t want VAR and we, as a club, stand 100 per cent behind that.”

In England, when Wolverhampton Wanderers proposed a motion to abolish the VAR system, there was not a single vote of support from the other Premier League teams, even those who had been more vociferous.
Wolves wanted the VAR system abolished in the Premier League (Adrian Dennis/AFP via Getty Images)

Yet the clubs in Sweden, like those in Norway, are run by members, which emboldens fans to take a stand because they have the power to effect change.

“It (VAR) has become a symbol of everything we don’t like about modern football,” says Isak Eden, president of the Swedish Football Supporters’ Union. “My team, Elfsborg, played in Europe last season (with mandatory VAR) and there’s always that feeling when your team scores that you have to hesitate, wait a minute, look three times, or that you might have to celebrate twice. It was completely weird.”

In the first of Elfsborg’s Europa League qualifiers, against Cypriot side Pafos, they were awarded a penalty when the VAR sent the referee to the pitchside monitor.

“We needed to win this game to get through,” says Eden. “Yet the whole stadium was chanting, ‘We hate VAR’. So I can sympathise with the Norwegian supporters. It was a lively debate here, too, but it’s completely dead now and nothing will change in Sweden for the foreseeable future.”

Compare and contrast with the scenes in Norway where anti-VAR slogans are not just displayed on T-shirts and hoodies but also on other items, such as air fresheners and bottle openers.

“It can be strange sometimes,” Ole Selnaes, a Rosenborg player with 32 Norway caps, tells The Athletic. “We are getting used to it, though. We know it’s a hot topic and, if the fans want to stay silent for the first 15 minutes, we have to focus and be professional.”

Do the players want VAR abolished? “Opinion is very mixed,” says Selnaes. “Some do, but some don’t. I can see both sides. Yes, it hasn’t worked perfectly, but we have to remember these are still early days. To me, it would be strange for us to remove VAR if almost everyone else in Europe has it.”

“Forsvar Medlemsdemokratiet” (‘Defend Member Democracy’) was the message displayed on banners at several grounds over the weekend.

Yet there is also a backlash against the backlash and, in the land of Erling Haaland and Martin Odegaard, the pro-VAR campaigners are becoming increasingly voluble, too.

In November, Fredrikstad chairman Jostein Lunde put a statement on the club’s website asking for feedback and explaining that “the board was in favour of VAR. ‘I hate f******g VAR’ has echoed throughout the stadium, but what does the entire membership really think?”

Fredrikstad’s members voted 70-65 in favour of the VAR system and Lunde sounds quite proud when he says they were one of only five top-division clubs, with Kristiansund, Sarpsborg 08, KFUM and Bodo/Glimt, to take that stand.

“I have been quite clear that VAR must continue,” says Lunde. “I have tried to be a strong pro-VAR voice because the people who want change tend to speak the loudest, whereas the people who don’t want change are often silent. I got a lot of criticism from different supporters. But the silent majority were too silent for too long.”

Amid all this, the NFF is entitled to point out that Eliteserien has moved up from 23rd in 2019 to 12th in UEFA’s rolling five-year coefficient rankings. Attendances are up. And, VAR or no VAR, the fans put on some show, not least because Norway’s football authorities allow pyrotechnics, which are banned in England and other countries. Fan culture is alive and well here — flags, flares, megaphones, tifos and fashion that Norway’s love of English football has clearly influenced.

But these are unusual times. When the supporters of Bodo/Glimt threw fishcakes on the pitch to disrupt a game against Haugesund, the club banned nine fans for 30 games. “To continue with such childish streaks is to kill football,” Frode Thomassen, the general manager, told TV2. “It’s not about football, not about VAR. I find it incredibly sad and boring.”

Soon afterwards, Bodo/Glimt had an away game against Stromsgodset, whose fans held up two large banners: “Freedom for Ultras” and “Have a fishcake, Frode”.

 

[danielwood5]

Darren Cann on VAR: 'We don't referee differently with VAR' says retired assistant referee

Match officials do not referee matches any differently despite the "safety net" of video assistant referees, says retired Premier League official Darren Cann.

www.bbc.co.uk

Darren Cann's a lying sack of shit.