United Thread | 2024/25

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Cumbie Blue said:
As explained from a finance bod at work: final straw will be the settlement figure for dual representation for transfer dealings from HMRC. They want paid and will not go away.

They simplified it for me last week. Agents fees are 1 million, paid by the player and tax / NI due at around 60% to HMRC. If the agent acts for the club and the player this drops to around 30%. How? Agent paid 500k by the club which avoids the tax charges (don't ask, I don't know how but it does), 500k by the player that dues are aid on. Now I'm assuming a 50/50 split here, could be more either way

300k paid as opposed to the £600k that should have been per million. Quick google and its around £25 million on agents fees a season around 2020, been a foot note in the accounts for what 3 years so lets assume (dangerous) that its 3 seasons worth and some is exempt as genuine so we'll say £40 million of creative tax avoidance so £20 million to be paid when HMRC says so, not over 100 instalments. Fucked if that bill comes in before 30/6....... tick, tick......
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Yeah it’s about time the HMRC investigation of United (and others) had a ‘pay up’ line drawn under it.
Cant recall how long ago that it’s been known about.. 5 years?!? @Prestwich_Blue
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Just had a look at their third quarter accounts and, as usual, I look closely at their cashflow statement. That shows the actual cash generated and used by the business over the period, and is generally a more accurate guide to how sustainable a company is, because if you haven't got the cash, you can't pay the bills.

Over the nine months, cash inflow from their normal operating activities was -£27.6m and they paid out a further £230m net, which includes £195m net on players. That means they've gone through nearly £260m cash in 9 months (compared to £205m in the 9 months to March 2024).

They made that shortfall up by a mixture of borrowing (i.e. their overdraft) and the sale of shares (to Scruffy Jim). In the 9 months to March 2024 that involved net inflows of £200m, and that went up to £260m in the same period this year.

They're living beyond their means on borrowed money, a bit like we were prior to the takeover, except their numbers are much bigger. That is the very opposite of sustainable.
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Maybe there should be something in place to prevent this situation arising.
How about profit and sustainability rules?
Oh, wait........
 
hertsblue said:
There really needs to be a Panorama investigation into the PL and the Rags finances. Twice they have been bailed out by the PL.
1st was years ago when the PL quietly reduced some of the rules inc wage increase % the exact same time the Rags had 4-5 key players contracts up for renewals and also spent heavily ie Maquire in the transfer market. Co-incidence perhaps but the timing was very suspicious and no one in the media picked up the story.
Then last season, after the 3rd huge losses in a row, far over the allowed limit, they were let off with being allowed to put in over the top claims re covid other other stuff.
And of course the token UEFA fine for failing UEFA FFP where the media kept telling us "it was only just over"
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Fining a club for breaching psr must surely make compliance more difficult?
 
Cumbie Blue said:
As explained from a finance bod at work: final straw will be the settlement figure for dual representation for transfer dealings from HMRC. They want paid and will not go away.

They simplified it for me last week. Agents fees are 1 million, paid by the player and tax / NI due at around 60% to HMRC. If the agent acts for the club and the player this drops to around 30%. How? Agent paid 500k by the club which avoids the tax charges (don't ask, I don't know how but it does), 500k by the player that dues are aid on. Now I'm assuming a 50/50 split here, could be more either way

300k paid as opposed to the £600k that should have been per million. Quick google and its around £25 million on agents fees a season around 2020, been a foot note in the accounts for what 3 years so lets assume (dangerous) that its 3 seasons worth and some is exempt as genuine so we'll say £40 million of creative tax avoidance so £20 million to be paid when HMRC says so, not over 100 instalments. Fucked if that bill comes in before 30/6....... tick, tick......
Click to expand...
I was told it was close to £100m but I can't swear whether that was the estimate of the claimed liability to HMRC or the amount that HMRC was basing its assessment of their liability on. Be nice if it was the former.

JASR said:
Yeah it’s about time the HMRC investigation of United (and others) had a ‘pay up’ line drawn under it.
Cant recall how long ago that it’s been known about.. 5 years?!? @Prestwich_Blue
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First mention of it in their accounts that I've seen was in 2019.
 
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Prestwich_Blue said:
Just had a look at their third quarter accounts and, as usual, I look closely at their cashflow statement. That shows the actual cash generated and used by the business over the period, and is generally a more accurate guide to how sustainable a company is, because if you haven't got the cash, you can't pay the bills.

Over the nine months, cash inflow from their normal operating activities was -£27.6m and they paid out a further £230m net, which includes £195m net on players. That means they've gone through nearly £260m cash in 9 months (compared to £205m in the 9 months to March 2024).

They made that shortfall up by a mixture of borrowing (i.e. their overdraft) and the sale of shares (to Scruffy Jim). In the 9 months to March 2024 that involved net inflows of £200m, and that went up to £260m in the same period this year.

They're living beyond their means on borrowed money, a bit like we were prior to the takeover, except their numbers are much bigger. That is the very opposite of sustainable.
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I'm salivating
 
zandvoort blue said:
Already thought this as soon as Frank was linked to the job. If there's no serious movement from the Rags by closure of the initial transfer window on Tuesday this story will run.
It'd be so poignant if the Rags ended up with Brennan Johson instead.
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What makes you think he'd be interested ?
 
give it to gordon said:
I miss talking football I struggle with trying to be an accountant and a lawyer.

In my simple brain it's the rags books that should be used psr.
I don't understand how red football Ltd accounts are used instead.
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It's the company that owns the majority of the Rags.

They use companies to buy other companies, therefore the books of the holding company will be audited.

Its common practice in business.
 
uncle b said:
It's the company that owns the majority of the Rags.

They use companies to buy other companies, therefore the books of the holding company will be audited.

Its common practice in business.
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Football finances and how they are legislated are not common business though, this is just another case of a red top cartel member avoiding punishment by being allowed to be creative in the accounting dept.

The rules they themselves drew up to benefit themselves they are failing in plain sight and the organisations that oversee those rules appear to have become blind.
 
mexico1970 said:
Football finances and how they are legislated are not common business though, this is just another case of a red top cartel member avoiding punishment by being allowed to be creative in the accounting dept.

The rules they themselves drew up to benefit themselves they are failing in plain sight and the organisations that oversee those rules appear to have become blind.
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Their fuck up was charging us as this has allowed us to formally call them out during the case hearings I’d guess without fear of further retribution.
 
deano ou812 said:
And again strange that the likes of PB can break down the finances of the rags and how they are possibly heading into choppy waters going forward,yet at the moment no articles from any of the hacks on this or how they are avoiding possible sanctions regards PSR or FFP, I wonder why.
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They've been heading into choppy waters for years and they always survive
By all means laugh at them on and off the football pitch but they aren't going to go into administration or anything
 
mancboy said:
That was exactly the same attitude that enron, arcadia group, debenhams, homebase etc etc had right before they did
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We've seen it so many times with the rags over the last fifteen years or so that I've lost count
The PIK was the one where I got my hopes up and since, I've just understood they'll just be more shenanigans

www.bbc.co.uk

Manchester United's Glazer family to pay off PIK loans

Manchester United's American owners are to pay off their high interest Payment-in-Kind (PIK) loans, estimated to be worth around £220m.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
dickie davies said:
We've seen it so many times with the rags over the last fifteen years or so that I've lost count
The PIK was the one where I got my hopes up and since, I've just understood they'll just be more shenanigans

www.bbc.co.uk

Manchester United's Glazer family to pay off PIK loans

Manchester United's American owners are to pay off their high interest Payment-in-Kind (PIK) loans, estimated to be worth around £220m.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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i agree, they have gotten away with murder of that there is no doubt, im just saying that there has been a ton of organisations who thought they were too big to fail and that there would always be a bail out coming from somewhere and they all thought that right up until the time there wasnt.
 
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