Grooming gang scandal

When you consider the rape statistics perhaps it isn’t that baffling. Most women and men do not report rape and of the ones that are reported very few result in a success prosecution.

Arguably, there is a culture of shame and silence that allows these offences to exist undetected, not reported or officially ignored. There is a reluctance to believe the victims as seemingly happened in this case. But that is pretty much true of all cases.


There is also a link to the source of the figures.

Perhaps we should widen any inquiry into rape culture as a whole and society’s attitudes.
And the “grooming rape scandal” would be a great place to start.

Would love to see some cretinous councillor or policeman locked up all these years later
 
One person’s U-turn is another’s acting on further information.

It was forever thus.

It was also important for the government to show that they don’t cave to 2 week social media bandwagons. The bandwagon failed and the noise also disappeared until the inquiry was announced and now it’s popped up for another few days before dying again.

The next one will be Israel/Iran conflict involvement.
You mean wait til the problem goes away …
 
Maybe so, but they were mostly from that subsection of society.

Equally, those people demanding that they wanted the inquiry into Pakistani gangs rather than all grooming gangs poured as much fuel to the fire.

Starmer is shit at communication. That’s his main weakness and it gets exploited repeatedly.

He’s made some good and some bad choices. I’m happy that he’s reneged on some of his bad choices.

As Bob K suggests though, this inquiry likely won’t unearth much more than they others in all likelihood, but it’s kicked the can down the road whilst it is undertaken.

If things are uncovered, then they should be dealt with asap, but my breath isn’t being held.
Their communications as a whole have been really poor, not just Starmer.
 
Will the inquiry include look into the Catholic Church as well? How they cover up their paedo priests and move them on to somewhere else? I bet it doesn't.
Agree.... but lets not have scope creep and conflate the two... but you are correct the Catholic (or indeed any other) church should not be above the law and immune from investigation and prosecution.
 

the hypocrisy is unreal.
 
Arguably, there is a culture of shame and silence that allows these offences to exist undetected, not reported or officially ignored. There is a reluctance to believe the victims as seemingly happened in this case. But that is pretty much true of all cases.
Perhaps, but every example I have seen has suggested that there was in fact no shame and silence from the victims in these cases, just lack of belief and action from the authorities. In particular, there seems to be little to no protection from accusers and their families between any accusation and any charges. Parents tell stories of these gangs threatening them from trying to save their own daughters, and at the very least, police should be acting on that with restraining orders, or whatever other means they have at their disposal while an investigation is ongoing.

I'm still amazed by the Barrow-in-Furness story of Ellie Williams who was convicted (seemingly rightly and convincingly) of perverting the course of justice, but then it emerged a few years later that two of the men she accused were charged with 62 counts of child abuse and got life sentences. She definitely lied, definitely inflicted injuries on herself, and definitely faked text messages, but also two of the men she named were child abusers. So you have to wonder, were these the actions of a desperate girl who hadn't be believed or properly helped by the police and social services, or a fantasist who just coincidentally named two men who were guilty.
 
There was also a "failure to gather proper robust national data" on ethnicity, and the report finds "clear evidence of over representation among suspects of Asian and Pakistani-heritage men".

Casey refers to "examples of organisations avoiding the topic altogether for fear of appearing racist or raising community tensions".
 
the hypocrisy is unreal.

From the article:

‘Let’s set aside the fact that Mohammad married Aisha when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old according to Islamic scripture. Let’s also set aside the fact that as a matter of historical record Islam did indeed spread by the sword.’

These concerned Christians aren’t up to speed with the most recent research on Islam.

First of all, on the age of Aisha, there’s this:


Joshua Little has also gone into some depth about what motivated him to do his research here (it’s interesting that the initial impetus was provided by the New Atheism of Dawkins, Hitchens et al.).


Moving on to the claim that Islam was spread by the sword, this is not consistent with the archaeological evidence that dates from the early period of expansion and other written records from the time. The consensus among reputable scholars like G.W. Bowersock and Fred Donner is that the early ummah were a loose coalition of monotheists who may not have even self-identified as Muslim. They also appear to have been well-received by receptive Christian and other groups in places like Palestine rather than having had to maraud and subjugate their way through the Holy Land, engaging in acts of slaughter along the way.

Thirdly, the track record of Christianity is nothing to write home about when it comes to women. For example, famous Christian theologians like John Chrysostom and Ambrose thought women must veil at all times, Tertullian called women ‘the devil’s gateway’, St. Augustine said they were not fully made in God’s image, and St. Thomas Aquinas regarded them as ‘misbegotten males’.

Plus, it’s pretty certain that Christian Concern would seek to make abortion almost illegal if they could.

Having said that, there is no getting around the fact that these vile creatures did invoke their faith to justify what they did. In doing so I am detecting elements of what might be deemed, for want of a better word, Islamofascist thinking in what they said, which in turn might possibly be traceable to the Wahhabi theology that has, in recent times, taken root in Pakistan, thanks to the Saudis.

And so this is something that the inquiry needs to look at, as it did not, as far as I know, receive a mention in the report I have already drawn attention to that dates from December 2020.

It is therefore important that the word ‘Islamaphobia’, a term that may have some traction in other instances, is not invoked as a smokescreen to deflect attention away from valid criticism of Islam. And this could also get painful, as the tradition about the age of Aisha is found in a corpus of hadiths that many mainstream Muslims deem to be authoritative.

So that’s where I am with this at the moment.

There’s one last thing: the mother of one of the victims, Elizabeth McDonnel, once said in an interview that she didn’t think that Islam had anything to do with the creation of groomers and that these men were well beyond the reach and influence of the mosques.

My view is somewhat different: given a large enough body of scripture, it is usually possible to find a passage (or passages) that appear to justify something despicable that you want to do or have already done. And that’s an issue with sacred texts in general.
 
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the hypocrisy is unreal.

Given the Catholic Church’s record on child abuse running into thousands of instances worldwide, I would suggest they keep a low profile. They should also be mindful of Church of England covering up decades of abuse in the Smyth case.

Let them without sin and all that.
 
From the article:

‘Let’s set aside the fact that Mohammad married Aisha when she was six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old according to Islamic scripture. Let’s also set aside the fact that as a matter of historical record Islam did indeed spread by the sword.’

These concerned Christians aren’t up to speed with the most recent research on Islam.

First of all, on the age of Aisha, there’s this:


Joshua Little has also gone into some depth about what motivated him to do his research here:


Moving on to the claim that Islam was spread by the sword, this is not consistent with the archaeological evidence that dates from the early period of expansion and other written records from the time. The consensus among reputable scholars like G.W. Bowersock and Fred Donner is that the early ummah were a loose coalition of monotheists who may not have even self-identified as Muslim. They also appear to have been well-received by Christian and other groups in places like Palestine rather than marauded their way into the Holy Land.

Thirdly, the track record of Christianity is nothing to write home about when it comes to women. For example, famous Christian theologians like John Chrysostom and Ambrose thought women must veil at all times, Tertullian called women ‘the devil’s gateway’, St. Augustine said they were not fully made in God’s image, and St. Thomas Aquinas regarded them as ‘misbegotten males’.

Having said that, there is no getting around the fact that these vile creatures did invoke their faith to justify what they did. In doing so I am detecting elements of what might be deemed, for want of a better word, Islamofascist thinking in what they said, which in turn might possibly be traceable to the Wahhabi theology that has, in recent times, taken root in Pakistan, thanks to the Saudis.

And so this is something that the inquiry needs to look at, as it did not, as far as I know, receive a mention in the report I have already drawn attention to that dates from December 2020.

It is therefore important that the word ‘Islamaphobia’, a term that may have some traction in other instances, is not invoked as a smokescreen to deflect attention away from valid criticism of Islam. And this could also get painful, as the tradition about the age of Aisha is found in a corpus of hadiths that many mainstream Muslims deem to be authoritative.

So that’s where I am with this at the moment.

There’s one last thing: the mother of one of the victims, Elizabeth McDonnel, once said in an interview that she didn’t think that Islam had anything to do with the creation of groomers and that these men were well beyond the reach and influence of the mosques.

My view is somewhat different: given a large enough body of scripture, it is usually possible to find a passage (or passages) that appears to justify something despicable that you have already decided to do. And that’s an issue with sacred texts in general.
If people following a religion believe that it says X or Y, it doesn't really matter what it actually says. But I agree that the idea that this is Islamic in nature is likely BS. These abusers were often drug dealers, forcing girls into prostitution. Whatever you think Islam says about the role of women (and I have plenty of criticisms myself), the idea that these men are some sort of devout Muslims following what their scripture tells them is clearly bullshit.

To the extent that their background has in any way contributed to their heinous crimes, it is almost certainly a cultural thing, and the biggest impact is misogyny rather than race. And this is always the problem, because it's racist to judge people based on their nationality, but it's also completely normal to, for example, warn women going to Morocco to expect 'constant low-level harassment' (a direct quote from our staff handbook when I worked there). It's true that it's horrifically patronising to require immigrants to go through a "don't harass women" assimilation course, while also true that some people come from a country where harassment towards women is widespread, constant and largely unpunished. It's also true that in those cultures, the vast majority of men are perfectly decent and wouldn't dream of behaving in such a way. But also the vast majority of men likely wouldn't call out someone's inappropriate behaviour.

Equally, someone can be completely respectful of women in the vast majority of their life, and then be completely different when a woman (or girl) is presented to them as in some way lesser, either as a prostitute, or a slut, or a junkie, etc. And it's certainly conceivable that there could be a racial or cultural element to this. These white girls out partying at 14 years-old, not like the good girls in my community. I don't know though. It sounds more like a way of justifying their behaviour than an actual motivator.
 
Given the Catholic Church’s record on child abuse running into thousands of instances worldwide, I would suggest they keep a low profile. They should also be mindful of Church of England covering up decades of abuse in the Smyth case.

Let them without sin and all that.
It still astonishes me that we have no problem with them continuing to run schools. It's never even come up, the idea that this international paedophile ring might have the right to educate a huge number of children stripped from them.
 
There was also a "failure to gather proper robust national data" on ethnicity, and the report finds "clear evidence of over representation among suspects of Asian and Pakistani-heritage men".

Casey refers to "examples of organisations avoiding the topic altogether for fear of appearing racist or raising community tensions".

Like many on this thread still.

The desperation to try and steer the discussion away from the real issue here as discussed in today’s report says everything about the mentality, still evident that helped cover these crimes up.
 
If people following a religion believe that it says X or Y, it doesn't really matter what it actually says. But I agree that the idea that this is Islamic in nature is likely BS. These abusers were often drug dealers, forcing girls into prostitution. Whatever you think Islam says about the role of women (and I have plenty of criticisms myself), the idea that these men are some sort of devout Muslims following what their scripture tells them is clearly bullshit.

To the extent that their background has in any way contributed to their heinous crimes, it is almost certainly a cultural thing, and the biggest impact is misogyny rather than race. And this is always the problem, because it's racist to judge people based on their nationality, but it's also completely normal to, for example, warn women going to Morocco to expect 'constant low-level harassment' (a direct quote from our staff handbook when I worked there). It's true that it's horrifically patronising to require immigrants to go through a "don't harass women" assimilation course, while also true that some people come from a country where harassment towards women is widespread, constant and largely unpunished. It's also true that in those cultures, the vast majority of men are perfectly decent and wouldn't dream of behaving in such a way. But also the vast majority of men likely wouldn't call out someone's inappropriate behaviour.

Equally, someone can be completely respectful of women in the vast majority of their life, and then be completely different when a woman (or girl) is presented to them as in some way lesser, either as a prostitute, or a slut, or a junkie, etc. And it's certainly conceivable that there could be a racial or cultural element to this. These white girls out partying at 14 years-old, not like the good girls in my community. I don't know though. It sounds more like a way of justifying their behaviour than an actual motivator.
Many excellent points there. Great post.
 

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