The Labour Government

Hertzblue said:
Morality .... please lol
They couldn't stick with Rwanda because they had opposed it out of political opportunism at every turn, they are desperately trying to do the same thing themselves but with Albania.
Nothing to do with morality only poor judgement.
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They’re not remotely comparable, either Rwanda to the Chagos deal or Rwanda to what they were discussing with Albania.

It clearly wasn’t opportunism, the conservatives ended up having to implement legislation just to deem Rwanda a safe country, let alone all the rest!
 
BobKowalski said:
2015 is when it really went off the rails. The biggest mistake at that point was turning austerity into a political mission rather than an economic one. They did the same with privatisation years before.

Since 2015 we have had six Prime Ministers in ten years. Prior to 2015 we had six Prime Minsters in forty years. This political instability reflected the instability in the country as a whole where we junked a broad political consensus on our industrial and foreign policy and lurched from a rebranded 1970’s Labour lite protectionist industrial policy - a ‘high wage economy’ as Johnson called it, to a far right low tax, minimal state and threadbare safety net for everyone. Basically, an ‘I’m all right Jack and fuck anyone who isn’t’ society. It lasted 45 days.

At this point the Tories were politically and intellectually dead. They were neither the party of business nor the party of the people. There was no intellectual coherence or even any idea of what the stood for. Sunak was left to tend the shop, made little attempt to govern and any hard decisions like overcrowding in our prisons and potential collapse of the justice system were booted into the next Parliament for a new Government to deal with. All they had was unworkable gimmicks and rhetoric. They even allowed our Union to be divided into separate economic jurisdictions - something May said was unthinkable for a Tory Government. Until Johnson threw our Union under the bus and held a funeral for the ‘Conservative and Unionist Party’.

What is their future? A change in leadership most certainly, but they also need a new identity. The far right is occupied by Reform whose obsession is immigration, but would also like to gut the State, health care and safety nets and make the rich even richer as the the GOP/Trump are doing now. For that they need marks and you are the mark. You have to con the people first before you can rob them. The beauty of marks is they can’t imagine they are marks until reality bites as it is currently doing especially in rural Republican communities in the US.

Starmer/Labour are pitching tent in the centre with a side helping of social conservatism (which has always been a feature of Labour and for which I have a strong distaste). This will push younger voters especially women towards more left leaning parties. Everyone talks about men drifting right, but the drift of women leftwards is just as pronounced if not more so.

So wither the Tories? Their right side is occupied, Labour are making a play for the centre, and they torched their reputation for competence. They need an identity, otherwise what is the point of them?
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I agree with some of that, but a load of it steams.

Johnson was a buffoon of course, and one lacking in principles. However, I do believe that when he was elected on his mission to Get Brexit Done, and to re-energize the north, build new hospitals etc, he was genuine in his aspirations. I was greatly encouraged at the time because I felt that having gained many red wall seats, the Tories (who as I say I am not a fan or per se, but who at the time came closest to my political beliefs) would rule for another decade or so at least. Labour was potentially finished for the foreseeable. Great news.

To his credit, Boris did get Brexit done. Not in a way that pleased everyone, but getting it over the line at all was an achievement bearing in mind how divided the Commons had been previously. And he negotiated a deal better than many thought possible. You can't please everybody of course, inevitably on such a divisive subject itself.

What followed was a shambles, absolutely and I would say completely brought about by COVID. Not only did it scupper all his aspirational investment plans, more than that it sucked the air completely out of the political room. It was all encompassing. Nothing could be done politically, fiscally or in the country as a whole. And of course it led directly to Boris' downfall due to his buffoonery and stupid lack of judgement over the Christmas parties. (With an opposition pouncing on it, and milking it for all its worth, I might add).

That was really the end. The rest they just stumbled through until kicked out.
 
hilts said:
In fairness some of the decisions they made were just bad decisions, I think they wanted to raise money by not being seen as typically Labour but ended up being a tad too Tory. I think a fair comment would be could do better but no expulsion or detention at this stage.
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They’re governing and communicating in a way that is suited to a world that, even from not that long ago, is completely different.
 
hilts said:
In fairness some of the decisions they made were just bad decisions, I think they wanted to raise money by not being seen as typically Labour but ended up being a tad too Tory. I think a fair comment would be could do better but no expulsion or detention at this stage.
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The public obviously are not so understanding as your good self.
 
hampshireblue said:
Before Cameron hinted at a referendum, the EU wasn't even in the top 10 issues for the electorate. Keeping his back benchers sweet was the driver for the referendum.

Are you blaming Blair et al for the GFC-because it sounds like it.

Which services are you prepared to go without to if tax increases don't happen?
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No, I'm not blaming Blair for the GFC, nor does he get a free pass either. Unless you want to give the Tories a free pass due to COVID, Ukraine etc? No, didn't thinnk so.

Blair inherited a country in good shape and critically with the world poised for a sustained period of strong growth. All ships rise on a high tide. He taxed and spent and taxed and spent and OF COURSE public services improved after all that spending. And the gullable public thought it as marvellous. But it was unsustainable and by the time Brown was kicked out we'd had 100+ tax rises and stealth taxes, increased borrowing and debt and sold off our gold. The cupboard was bare. And then the GFC which hit us worse than most because of our reliance on a largely out of control financial services sector, regulated by that same Labour government. So no, Labour don't get a free pass because of the 2008 crash.

Regards services, I suspect it's not going to be very painful, although I think sadly, it needs to be. A Labour government will I am sure go for more taxes and probably more borrowing rather than take difficult decisions.

It's irrelevant what I would do - I am not the Prime Minister - but since you asked, I would be looking to keep taxes across the board as low as possible; doing whatever I can to get the welfare bill down whilst protecting the most vulnerable; looking for reforms and efficiency improvements; sacking half of Whitehall; stop spending on utter bollocks like giving Singapore £70m; build detension centres and start putting illegal migrants in those not hotels. I can go on an on, but what's the point.
 
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What would make me happy now is a government of national unity. I simply cannot identify anyone in this Government with the knowledge or ability to get us out of this dire economic hole. We definitely need the Judiciary, once the envy of the world, to be depoliticised. Things are not working, needs a big shake up which was inevitable after Brexit. That’s what the people want imo.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I agree with some of that, but a load of it steams.

Johnson was a buffoon of course, and one lacking in principles. However, I do believe that when he was elected on his mission to Get Brexit Done, and to re-energize the north, build new hospitals etc, he was genuine in his aspirations. I was greatly encouraged at the time because I felt that having gained many red wall seats, the Tories (who as I say I am not a fan or per se, but who at the time came closest to my political beliefs) would rule for another decade or so at least. Labour was potentially finished for the foreseeable. Great news.

To his credit, Boris did get Brexit done. Not in a way that pleased everyone, but getting it over the line at all was an achievement bearing in mind how divided the Commons had been previously. And he negotiated a deal better than many thought possible. You can't please everybody of course, inevitably on such a divisive subject itself.

What followed was a shambles, absolutely and I would say completely brought about by COVID. Not only did it scupper all his aspirational investment plans, more than that it sucked the air completely out of the political room. It was all encompassing. Nothing could be done politically, fiscally or in the country as a whole. And of course it led directly to Boris' downfall due to his buffoonery and stupid lack of judgement over the Christmas parties. (With an opposition pouncing on it, and milking it for all its worth, I might add).

That was really the end. The rest they just stumbled through until kicked out.
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Worth remembering Johnson lost his job over Pincher, not the parties. That did him damage but wasn’t fatal at the time.
 
Jimmieblue said:
What would make me happy now is a government of national unity. I simply cannot identify anyone in this Government with the knowledge or ability to get us out of this dire economic hole. We definitely need the Judiciary, once the envy of the world, to be depoliticised. Things are not working, needs a big shake up which was inevitable after Brexit. That’s what the people want imo.
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Out of interest, in what way do you mean depoliticise the judiciary? As most people over recent years when they’ve said that are the ones that are actually most guilty of politicising it (previous governments being a prime example).
 
Chippy_boy said:
No, I'm not blaming Blair for the GFC, nor does he get a free pass either. Unless you want to give the Tories a free pass due to COVID, Ukraine etc? No, didn't thinnk so.

Blair inherited a country in good shape and critically with the world poised for a sustained period of strong growth. All ships rise on a high tide. He taxed and spent and taxed and spent and OF COURSE public services improved after all that spending. And the gullable public thought it as marvellous. But it was unsustainable and by the time Brown was kicked out we'd had 100+ tax rises and stealth taxes, increased borrowing and debt and sold off our gold. The cupboard was bare. And then the GFC which hit us worse than most because of our reliance on a largely out of control financial services sector, regulated by that same Labour government. So no, Labour don't get a free pass because of the 2008 crash.

Regards services, I suspect it's not going to be very painful, although I think sadly, it needs to be. A Labour government will I am sure go for more taxes and probably more borrowing rather than take difficult decisions.

It's irrelevant what I would do - I am not the Prime Minister - but since you asked, I would looking to keep taxes across the board as low as possible; doing whatever I can to get the welfare bill down whilst protecting the most vulnerable; looking for reforms and efficiency improvements; sacking half of Whitehall; stop spending on utter bollocks like giving Singapore £70m; build detension centres and start putting illegal migrants in those not hotel. I can go on an on, but what's the point.
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Maybe your wording needs to be looked at then regarding the GFC.

UK growth from 1997 to 2007 was 2.4% per year so actually the economy grew well for the whole period. The "good shape" you refer to was 5 from 1992 years of growth of 3.1% but that followed a serious recession, black Wednesday and unemployment at 11%. By the end of the 1990s unemployment was back at around 5%.

The positives of Blair's time in power:

  1. Homeowners: The housing market boomed under New Labour. House prices tripled from an average of £62,000 in 1997 to £171,000 by 2010, peaking at £190,000 in 2007. Homeowners saw substantial gains in their property values, providing many with significant equity and retirement funds .
  2. Low-Income Households: New Labour implemented several redistributive measures that benefited low-income households. The poorest tenth of households gained 13% of their net income due to tax and benefit changes. Absolute poverty fell by 14 percentage points, lifting 7 million people out of poverty .
  3. Pensioners and Children: Significant reductions in relative poverty were achieved for both pensioners and children. The number of pensioners in relative poverty dropped from 2.9 million in 1997 to 1.8 million in 2010, thanks to above-inflation increases in the state pension. The number of children in relative poverty also decreased, from 4.3 million to 3.9 million

I suggested to you last week about putting one of your detention centres on Exmoor, as it's remote and austere. Or is that a bit close to home?
  • "Sacking half of Whitehall" would be interesting regarding unemployment figures and the future benefit bill!!
 
meltonblue said:
Out of interest, in what way do you mean depoliticise the judiciary? As most people over recent years when they’ve said that are the ones that are actually most guilty of politicising it (previous governments being a prime example).
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As long as people keep harping on about the previous government and who did what to who, and who’s in this category and let’s divide everybody in some way … we won’t get anywhere. Lawyers as leaders in Parliament make sure the judiciary work for them, never has it been so blatant, Blair and his wife started it and it has carried on. The populace can sense it, it will not work. I just want the country led by the right people. I can’t see anyone to be honest, have they all gone for the big money into business, I don’t know.
 
Jimmieblue said:
What would make me happy now is a government of national unity. I simply cannot identify anyone in this Government with the knowledge or ability to get us out of this dire economic hole. We definitely need the Judiciary, once the envy of the world, to be depoliticised. Things are not working, needs a big shake up which was inevitable after Brexit. That’s what the people want imo.
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Totally.

We desperately need another Margaret Thatcher. I don't mean her politics (although I wouldn't mind). I mean someone with great intellect, gravitas, strength of convinction and preparedness to do unpopular things and drag the country kicking and screaming out of the shite we've got ourselves into.

But there is no such person in any of the political parties. Labour definitely don't have anyone, and anyway their policies are mainly bonkers. The Tories are IMO finished. Farage is most definitely not it. Greens, Libdems, nope. It's bleak I'm afraid.

In my parallel universe, Ben Habib manages to kick Farage out of Reform and then wins the next GE. Zero chance of that happening.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I agree with some of that, but a load of it steams.

Johnson was a buffoon of course, and one lacking in principles. However, I do believe that when he was elected on his mission to Get Brexit Done, and to re-energize the north, build new hospitals etc, he was genuine in his aspirations. I was greatly encouraged at the time because I felt that having gained many red wall seats, the Tories (who as I say I am not a fan or per se, but who at the time came closest to my political beliefs) would rule for another decade or so at least. Labour was potentially finished for the foreseeable. Great news.

To his credit, Boris did get Brexit done. Not in a way that pleased everyone, but getting it over the line at all was an achievement bearing in mind how divided the Commons had been previously. And he negotiated a deal better than many thought possible. You can't please everybody of course, inevitably on such a divisive subject itself.

What followed was a shambles, absolutely and I would say completely brought about by COVID. Not only did it scupper all his aspirational investment plans, more than that it sucked the air completely out of the political room. It was all encompassing. Nothing could be done politically, fiscally or in the country as a whole. And of course it led directly to Boris' downfall due to his buffoonery and stupid lack of judgement over the Christmas parties. (With an opposition pouncing on it, and milking it for all its worth, I might add).

That was really the end. The rest they just stumbled through until kicked out.
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The Brexit deal benefited the EU far more than it benefited the UK. Johnson needed that deal. He needed any deal, and it didn’t matter what was in the deal. Any deal negotiated when one party is up against the clock will end up with that party getting screwed. This is why part of the UK operates under a different economic jurisdiction.

Johnson could have ruled for a decade as he famously claimed, and the press agreed with him, but it wasn’t Covid that did for him. Johnson was always going to be Johnson’s worst enemy. Covid did him a favour. It masked any Brexit damage and he screwed the EU over vaccines giving him a short term boost. But like the vaccines he was always short term gain for long term pain. The EU deal didn’t do us any favours, he sold out NI and the EU killed the Oxford AZ vaccine. Johnson’s weakness? He didn’t care. He couldn’t give a shit about anyone but himself and that is what did for him. Rules, regulations and conventions are for everyone else, but not him.

Johnson at least knew what was needed to rule for ten years, he just lacked the character to do it. Truss was a right wing think tank’s wet dream. For forty-eight hours she was the darling of the right and the media. Within a week she was in a death struggle with a lettuce and those that lauded her ran for the hills.

After that, yeah, it was a slow death. Thing is, they are still dying.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Totally.

We desperately need another Margaret Thatcher. I don't mean her politics (although I wouldn't mind). I mean someone with great intellect, gravitas, strength of convinction and preparedness to do unpopular things and drag the country kicking and screaming out of the shite we've got ourselves into.

But there is no such person in any of the political parties. Labour definitely don't have anyone, and anyway their policies are mainly bonkers. The Tories are IMO finished. Farage is most definitely not it. Greens, Libdems, nope. It's bleak I'm afraid.

In my parallel universe, Ben Habib manages to kick Farage out of Reform and then wins the next GE. Zero chance of that happening.
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Couldn’t agree more. What I do believe is someone will emerge, don’t know when or where from, but it will happen. This lot, God help us, are pathetic and those who voted for them deserve all they get.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Totally.

We desperately need another Margaret Thatcher. I don't mean her politics (although I wouldn't mind). I mean someone with great intellect, gravitas, strength of convinction and preparedness to do unpopular things and drag the country kicking and screaming out of the shite we've got ourselves into.

But there is no such person in any of the political parties. Labour definitely don't have anyone, and anyway their policies are mainly bonkers. The Tories are IMO finished. Farage is most definitely not it. Greens, Libdems, nope. It's bleak I'm afraid.

In my parallel universe, Ben Habib manages to kick Farage out of Reform and then wins the next GE. Zero chance of that happening.
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She is the biggest reason plenty of the things that actually affect average people (water bills, train fares etc.) are so fucked.
 
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