What has the UK become under the far right influence?

[stonerblue]

Cheers mate butI'm not interested in what it says..I only know they won't help her find anywhere..they put her on housing list but said it could be 2 years before she is at top of the list.
There is a severe lack of social housing in the Bury area apparently due to a lack of investment.

Try Bolton at Home (bolton council)

 

[blue by birth]

Try Bolton at Home (bolton council)

She only wants bury mate..

 

[The perfect fumble]

Part of the reason it has made it mainstream is inequality though, amongst other reasons and factors too.

It will move on eventually but I’m not sure it’s going to be a positive intervention that does it.

Maybe.

The left is ill suited for this kind of thing. When at your core you're a class based ideology, workers of the world unite you have nothing to loose but your chains kinda thing and lets all sing The Internationale, concepts like patriotism, nationalism even the nation state itself are a bit of an ill fit, particularly if you see it all as a con by the establishment to undermine class solidarity by divide and rule, you have to ask yourself is their heart really in it?

The right always accuses the left of being unpatriotic and it's mostly bollocks, but only mostly. Corbyn's new party is ridiculed by his opponents as the Gaza Party and it lingers coz there's a grain of truth to it, a party more concerned about Gaza than Grimsby. Starmer insists Labour Party offices fly the Union Jack and his insistence tells you something.

The clincher in all this is the left's rejection of ethno nationalism and its replacement with the completely vacuous civic nationalism, and this ties in with the left's rejection of the idea of an indigenous population. When the arsehole Tommy Robinson says the left has abandoned the white working class, arsehole or not he's absolutely right, the left does not recognise the white working class at all as a separate category, it's all oppressed and oppressor for them. So what's going on now is simply bad faith actors agitating the more unsavoury elements of the proletariat to take out their frustrations on the handy scapegoats, the immigrants. It's all very nice and tidy and fits neatly into their ideology and solves precisely nothing.

 

[oldius]

That is the standard line, it's what John Swinney is peddling north of the border and of course you hear it from Corbyn here and Sanders in the States, the Greens, the Lib Dems it's the same story, round of applause, sorted.

Except it isn't.

They don't come much leafier than Epping and the voices your hear are not all white working class geezers, there's increasingly a middle class timbre to it and a lot of women, I've not seen that before.

And yes scarcity of resources is part of the narrative for sure, but it's they're coming after our women and kids that's at the forefront. The poster child for all this is Lucy Connolly not Nick Griffin. There's a reason this has made the leap from minority racist sport to mainstream and I'm struggling to understand it myself, but parroting the same line over and over again in the hope it'll find traction, when clearly outside of the bubble it isn't, is not only counter productive, it gets in the way of trying to see the problem for what it might be.

There are folk in here so wedded to a narrative that anyone who dares to point out that this time looks different, gets immediately accused of being on the side of the racists, a heretic and a pile on ensues. The progressive left has become such a straitjacket, not everything can be neatly rammed home into it's designated spot no matter how hard you hammer it.

What you are speaking of is the here and now.
What you have ignored, IMO, is where the roots lie. Once people begin to realise that they are working three jobs to pay the rent and have nothing left over, they are easy meat. That's when the grifters begin their long range plotting, and when their media partners step in. Leafy Epping is a red-herring - I watched far-right protesters getting off the train to march to the asylum centre in Liverpool while I matched against them.

This time is different - you are correct - but not for the reason that the points raised are any more legitimate. Through social media and the mainstream, these anti-immigrant narratives have become more and more normalised. Critics of it have been derided as woke, lefties, snowflakes, anarchists, and unpatriotic, while the 'you can't say anything these days' have become the heroes and patriots, just like you are suggesting now. We have legitimised racists so that they do not believe that what they are saying is such. Once you demean a whole religion under the umbrella of saving our kids, you are a racist, IMO. Politicians have delivered this outcome. STOP THE BOAT slogans that have no hope of being delivered simply cause frustration when the easier path would simply be to open legal routes, obey international law, efficiently process asylum applications, and make proper return arrangements. Instead, politicians have sought to create fury for their own gain.

We are in a world decimated by war, genocide, and climate change. People will leave their nations under such conditions, just as we would. They will also leave for better economic conditions, just as we do. If we do it, we are expats. If 'they' do it, they are immigrants, and that's just one way that the press help to create these dreadful narratives. The left - what a load of old fanny. It's not left wing to not be a racist. It is not left wing to welcome vulnerable people. It's not left wing to expect taxation fairness. It's not left wing to expect international law to be complied with. This is how it all works - label it lefty and we can get away with anything.

 

[The perfect fumble]

The left - what a load of old fanny. It's not left wing to not be a racist. It is not left wing to welcome vulnerable people. It's not left wing to expect taxation fairness. It's not left wing to expect international law to be complied with. This is how it all works - It's not left wing to expect international law to be complied with

There are of course many right wingers who do not have a racist bone in their body, but right wing ideology, which is predominantly individualistic, rather than left wing ideology which is collectivist, lends itself more naturally to rationalise a hierarchical society based, they tell themselves, on merit, and when they see the rich north and the poor south, it's an easier hop, skip and a fart for the right to see racial superiority underpinning that hierarchy than it is for left wingers who see only oppressed and oppressors.

It is not left wing to welcome vulnerable people? As an ideology it is, if right wingers do so it is because of religious beliefs or a charitable disposition, but their politics? It's all a bit Scrooge "are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"

It's not left wing to expect taxation fairness you say. I'm sorry mate I had to have a giggle at that.

You state it's not left wing to expect international law to be complied with. For the right if international law gets in the way of self interest, if you can swerve it you do.

As for "label it lefty and we can get away with anything" well the left has tried to get away with the female penis so you're probably right on that one.

 

[meltonblue]

Maybe.

The left is ill suited for this kind of thing. When at your core you're a class based ideology, workers of the world unite you have nothing to loose but your chains kinda thing and lets all sing The Internationale, concepts like patriotism, nationalism even the nation state itself are a bit of an ill fit, particularly if you see it all as a con by the establishment to undermine class solidarity by divide and rule, you have to ask yourself is their heart really in it?

The right always accuses the left of being unpatriotic and it's mostly bollocks, but only mostly. Corbyn's new party is ridiculed by his opponents as the Gaza Party and it lingers coz there's a grain of truth to it, a party more concerned about Gaza than Grimsby. Starmer insists Labour Party offices fly the Union Jack and his insistence tells you something.

The clincher in all this is the left's rejection of ethno nationalism and its replacement with the completely vacuous civic nationalism, and this ties in with the left's rejection of the idea of an indigenous population. When the arsehole Tommy Robinson says the left has abandoned the white working class, arsehole or not he's absolutely right, the left does not recognise the white working class at all as a separate category, it's all oppressed and oppressor for them. So what's going on now is simply bad faith actors agitating the more unsavoury elements of the proletariat to take out their frustrations on the handy scapegoats, the immigrants. It's all very nice and tidy and fits neatly into their ideology and solves precisely nothing.

That is a very right wing perspective of it though (and framed as such in their apparent new modern definitions, who actually is the left and the right in that?) I don’t mean that in a way of detracting the sentiment as I agree with some of it there but there’s other reasons too why those arguments are gaining more visibility again nowadays and subsequently support, one being inequality.

 

[oldius]

There are of course many right wingers who do not have a racist bone in their body, but right wing ideology, which is predominantly individualistic, rather than left wing ideology which is collectivist, lends itself more naturally to rationalise a hierarchical society based, they tell themselves, on merit, and when they see the rich north and the poor south, it's an easier hop, skip and a fart for the right to see racial superiority underpinning that hierarchy than it is for left wingers who see only oppressed and oppressors.

It is not left wing to welcome vulnerable people? As an ideology it is, if right wingers do so it is because of religious beliefs or a charitable disposition, but their politics? It's all a bit Scrooge "are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"

It's not left wing to expect taxation fairness you say. I'm sorry mate I had to have a giggle at that.

You state it's not left wing to expect international law to be complied with. For the right if international law gets in the way of self interest, if you can swerve it you do.

As for "label it lefty and we can get away with anything" well the left has tried to get away with the female penis so you're probably right on that one.

Have the right really convinced you that the left think about female penises? Heavens, they do try to divide and conquer.

The other things you mention don't become left wing ideals because the right reject them. They are centrist principles. Here lies the issue. Politicians have cemented the wall between right and left when, in fact, most are well in the centre. The idea of everyone paying a fair tax rate is no more a radical left idea than believing that racism is wrong. Taking care of the vulnerable is not left wing, it is basic humanity.

If paying your way so that public services are funded, taking care of others, and not judging people by skin colour, are now deemed radical or lefty, we have really lost our way: those things are just what normal, caring people do.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Have the right really convinced you that the left think about female penises? Heavens, they do try to divide and conquer.

There's a Bernard Manning joke in there somewhere.

I guess by your reply you're a bloke. This comment is not aimed at you, but I first joined Labour 50 years ago and believe me when I say it's riddled with misogyny from top to bottom, it's woven into the very fabric of the party

The other things you mention don't become left wing ideals because the right reject them. They are centrist principles. Here lies the issue. Politicians have cemented the wall between right and left when, in fact, most are well in the centre. The idea of everyone paying a fair tax rate is no more a radical left idea than believing that racism is wrong. Taking care of the vulnerable is not left wing, it is basic humanity.

If paying your way so that public services are funded, taking care of others, and not judging people by skin colour, are now deemed radical or lefty, we have really lost our way: those things are just what normal, caring people do.

Thanks for highlighting a couple of things I'd forgotten.

The left thinks the centre is closer to them than it actually is, it maintains this fiction by ignoring evidence to the contrary, only ever talking to itself and when all else fails blames false consciousness, right wing agitators and the right wing media.

As for....

"The idea of everyone paying a fair tax rate is no more a radical left idea than believing that racism is wrong"

I'm not so sure about that and neither is Starmer by the look of it.

And as for...

"Taking care of the vulnerable is not left wing, it is basic humanity."

Most folk live their lives by nearest and dearest first, friends and people they know second, the occasional tragedy third, everything else it's "oh dear, how sad, never mind".

Basic humanity is a meaningless phrase and as for human rights that term has been debased so much by the left my skin crawls to hear it.

 

[The perfect fumble]

That is a very right wing perspective of it though (and framed as such in their apparent new modern definitions, who actually is the left and the right in that?) I don’t mean that in a way of detracting the sentiment as I agree with some of it there but there’s other reasons too why those arguments are gaining more visibility again nowadays and subsequently support, one being inequality.

I've been a part of the left for decades, I know my way around, my anger at what the left has become, all it's wings, has not made me one iota fonder of the right, I despise the right.

Some things have their root causes in inequality, this is not one of them, a sizeable chunk of our fellow countrymen and women want immigrants gone and with talk of camps and mass deportations they don't seem particularly concerned as to how, that is new, we've not seen that before, the old excuses don't work anymore, if they ever did.

You're seeing the repudiation of multiculturalism, the SWP are always agitating for the sleeping giant of the working class to wake up and cast off their chains of oppression, well they might not have fully woken up, but they've staggered bleary eyed to the crapper and taken a piss on multiculturalism and Starmer is praying they'll go back to sleep.

 

[Giovinco]

The biggest cause of the current divide in society was the Brexit vote.

If that’s what you think then fair enough but to me the brexit vote was the result of a build up of issues over many years. Cause and affect.

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

Basic humanity is a meaningless phrase and as for human rights that term has been debased so much by the left my skin crawls to hear it.

Are asylum seekers human beings?
Are Muslims?

I spend a lot of time on X.

From reading tweets authored by the likes of Rupert Lowe, Ben Habib, Lee Anderson, Darren Grimes, and various past and present GB News and TalkTV presenters, I have begun to wonder whether they would answer those two questions in the affirmative.

They too have debased the notion of human rights.

 

[oldius]

There's a Bernard Manning joke in there somewhere.

I guess by your reply you're a bloke. This comment is not aimed at you, but I first joined Labour 50 years ago and believe me when I say it's riddled with misogyny from top to bottom, it's woven into the very fabric of the party



Thanks for highlighting a couple of things I'd forgotten.

The left thinks the centre is closer to them than it actually is, it maintains this fiction by ignoring evidence to the contrary, only ever talking to itself and when all else fails blames false consciousness, right wing agitators and the right wing media.

As for....

"The idea of everyone paying a fair tax rate is no more a radical left idea than believing that racism is wrong"

I'm not so sure about that and neither is Starmer by the look of it.

And as for...

"Taking care of the vulnerable is not left wing, it is basic humanity."

Most folk live their lives by nearest and dearest first, friends and people they know second, the occasional tragedy third, everything else it's "oh dear, how sad, never mind".

Basic humanity is a meaningless phrase and as for human rights that term has been debased so much by the left my skin crawls to hear it.

From what you are saying, both the centre and the right do not believe in fair taxation, nor caring for people. And you refute that the press influences public opinion.

You also imply that speaking out against inhumane and uncaring acts is both futile and unwelcome.

I can understand both of those arguments because we are where we are. It reflects the great sadness I feel about our society where listening is a skill possessed by few, and certainly rare are those willing to have opinions changed. We won't agree on many things, but your post definitely made me think.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Are asylum seekers human beings?
Are Muslims?

I spend a lot of time on X.

From reading tweets authored by the likes of Rupert Lowe, Ben Habib, Lee Anderson, Darren Grimes, and various past and present GB News and TalkTV presenters, I have begun to wonder whether they would answer those two questions in the affirmative.

They too have debased the notion of human rights.

The right don't get a free pass on this, the miscreants you listed are shits of the highest order, but I expect nothing from them, absolutely nothing. The only purpose they serve other than propagandising is to show just where we'd be if these fuckers and their ilk ever got in, but as we all know, were there a general election tomorrow they would, that is where we are, right now.

The only thing I do know is the old certainties are finished, more of the same just won't hack it and that means the left in its various guises, coz they're the only alternative, have to stop doubling down on their bullshit. You don't have to agree with me to recognise that what the left is selling has too few buyers, repackaging the same old mantras, the same old lies, the same old authoritarian proscriptive nonsense won't work.

And the first thing the left needs to do is stop lying to itself.

 

[Giovinco]

I’m still trying to understand this thread and what the UK has become, can you confirm what the ‘left’ have pushed too far on?

I referred to the ideology with neo Marxist roots sometimes called ‘intersectionalism, but is also sometimes called critical social justice or critical theory. It is by definition oppose the values of conservatism (tradition, hierarchy, markets, universalism).

When the economic policies of economic socialism failed, it moved into the cultural sphere.

If you’ve spent any time in universities recently you’ll see the idea of social constructivism is everywhere.

I for one am a critical realist, I embrace the notions of scientific determinism and social constructs.

We can see this ideology at play in our lives

- workplace

- education

- policing and criminal justice

- immigration and national identity

I for one support some of this progression but in my view the pendulum has swung way too far in one direction.

 

[Don Karleone]

My son is having to let his girlfriends mum and her son who has various health problems live in their converted garage because she became homeless due to the landlord seeking possession of her property because he wanted to sell it.
She went to the local authority when she was told he was seeking possession of her home and they said come back when you are homeless..which in due course she did and was told " we have no duty to rehouse you but you can join the housing list".
If she came over on a boat then she would be out up in a hotel ..but because she already lives here she would be homeless..
In my honest opinion the Government need to sort out the housing crisis before allowing more people into the country..and I don't care if they are white black yellow or fucking pink and orange striped..
It seems crazy that we have an housing shortage but can house people who have no legal right to be here before housing people who have lived here all their lives and paid taxes insurance etc.

I always thought that local authorities had a duty of care to find suitable accommodation for people at risk of becoming homeless.

Might be worth giving the CAB a bell if they haven't already.

 

[moomba]

Never thought Id come across someone more obsessed with "the left" the last US election.

But here we are.

 

[blue by birth]

I always thought that local authorities had a duty of care to find suitable accommodation for people at risk of becoming homeless.

Might be worth giving the CAB a bell if they haven't already.

Cheers..it's a shit show re local authority housing nowadays

 

[meltonblue]

I've been a part of the left for decades, I know my way around, my anger at what the left has become, all it's wings, has not made me one iota fonder of the right, I despise the right.

Some things have their root causes in inequality, this is not one of them, a sizeable chunk of our fellow countrymen and women want immigrants gone and with talk of camps and mass deportations they don't seem particularly concerned as to how, that is new, we've not seen that before, the old excuses don't work anymore, if they ever did.

You're seeing the repudiation of multiculturalism, the SNP are always agitating for the sleeping giant of the working class to wake up and cast off their chains of oppression, well they might not have fully woken up, but they've staggered bleary eyed to the crapper and taken a piss on multiculturalism and Starmer is praying they'll go back to sleep.

Will reply to this later but I agree to an extent if you take the right wing view and definition of multiculturalism. The issue is they will push the binary narrative (like ethno vs civil nationalism) whereas that’s revisiting an old and out of date debate to me as there are more facets to it than that, of which currently the right is winning the claim to (due to failings of the left and other reasons). Inequality is an enabler of them being able to do that, the financial crisis and shifts across Europe that followed showed that too.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Will reply to this later but I agree to an extent if you take the right wing view and definition of multiculturalism. The issue is they will push the binary narrative (like ethno vs civil nationalism) whereas that’s revisiting an old and out of date debate to me as there are more facets to it than that, of which currently the right is winning the claim to (due to failings of the left and other reasons). Inequality is an enabler of them being able to do that, the financial crisis and shifts across Europe that followed showed that too.

Just noticed I made a typo, that should read (and now does) the SWP.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

As for....

"The idea of everyone paying a fair tax rate is no more a radical left idea than believing that racism is wrong"

I'm not so sure about that and neither is Starmer by the look of it.

Really? The left vs right debate on taxes is on the level and distribution of the taxes. But I've never met anyone who doesn't think, once those levels have been established, that allowing people to avoid paying through dodgy schemes and clever accounting tricks is a bad idea (except for very specific taxes they disagree with on principle, like inheritance tax).

The only people in favour of such things are those with a financial interest in keeping them open. The fact that Starmer or his predecessors didn't close such loopholes isn't evidence that they think it's an unpopular position, it's evidence that it wouldn't please their paymasters, and/or that they are using such loopholes themselves.

The evidence for this is that despite never doing anything significant about it, they will nevertheless pay lip service to closing tax loopholes and cracking down on dodgy tax arrangements throughout their term. Even David 'tax haven' Cameron did this. There's not a single politician who has come out and argued that these tax loopholes are necessary and a positive for the country, because they know it'd be political suicide, precisely because they know that public opinion is overwhelming on this from both left and right-leaning people.