What has the UK become under the far right influence?

oldius said:
After my friends and family, I am as concerned about global issues as I am about fellow Brits. I don't especially consider myself British, however, so perhaps that is a factor. I have no particular loyalty to my nation of birth, nor any patriotic feelings. My father is very patriotic, a Brexiteer, and told me throughout my childhood of Britain being world leaders. He spoke of British quality, and of English being the international language, discouraging me from learning others, though I was useless at languages anyway. I am now an Irish citizen.

I think you speak well of the reality for many. I don't like it, but I understand your world-view, and believe it to be largely accurate, for a lot of people. I find it somewhat depressing though, and believe that care for fellow humans would lead to better choices. I think that feelings of patriotism are dissipating fast, and there is where the tension is. Some people are fiercely patriotic, or just speak loudly about it, while others, especially swathes of young people, have no loyalty to their nation of birth whatsoever. This will be a political dilemma because young people will increasingly question the choices made by politicians, and will turn their back on political parties who support despotic regimes outed on social media. When I was young (I'm 56) I was fed tales of the evils that lurked behind the iron curtain where all was grey and could not be trusted; that Churchill was the greatest British hero; and that the British empire was filled with heroism and the spirit of exploration, and corruption was far removed from Britain but rife elsewhere in the world. This was ALL we were taught, and times are changing, rapidly. Why? Because much of that is utter bullshit, or, at best, filled with misinformation by omission.

If I were to choose citizenship of Britain, what would matter to me more than it does right now?
When I hear politicians speak of their patriotism, then watch them close mines, the textile industry, steel works, the fishing industry, and sell off social housing, their words ring hollow to me. I watch our rivers pumped full of sewage while shareholders count their dividends and patriots do nothing. I listen to Farage tell the people of Clacton that he has bought a house there, then fall apart when he's questioned about his taxes. I watch Sunak justify his 21% tax rate and his non-dom billionaire wife. I watch Starmer continue to supply weaponry to Israel while they slaughter children, doctors and journalists and I wonder how that ticks the box marked Great Britain. I watch the repeated affairs of the Royal Family, their hush money payments, their friendships with paedophiles, and I watch the press gloss over it like it doesn't matter. I suppose because I care about these issues, I must care about Britain, but I am absolutely being driven from it, both mentally, and probably physically, and I am far from alone.
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Bravo, post of the week!
 
oldius said:
After my friends and family, I am as concerned about global issues as I am about fellow Brits. I don't especially consider myself British, however, so perhaps that is a factor. I have no particular loyalty to my nation of birth, nor any patriotic feelings. My father is very patriotic, a Brexiteer, and told me throughout my childhood of Britain being world leaders. He spoke of British quality, and of English being the international language, discouraging me from learning others, though I was useless at languages anyway. I am now an Irish citizen.

I think you speak well of the reality for many. I don't like it, but I understand your world-view, and believe it to be largely accurate, for a lot of people. I find it somewhat depressing though, and believe that care for fellow humans would lead to better choices. I think that feelings of patriotism are dissipating fast, and there is where the tension is. Some people are fiercely patriotic, or just speak loudly about it, while others, especially swathes of young people, have no loyalty to their nation of birth whatsoever. This will be a political dilemma because young people will increasingly question the choices made by politicians, and will turn their back on political parties who support despotic regimes outed on social media. When I was young (I'm 56) I was fed tales of the evils that lurked behind the iron curtain where all was grey and could not be trusted; that Churchill was the greatest British hero; and that the British empire was filled with heroism and the spirit of exploration, and corruption was far removed from Britain but rife elsewhere in the world. This was ALL we were taught, and times are changing, rapidly. Why? Because much of that is utter bullshit, or, at best, filled with misinformation by omission.

If I were to choose citizenship of Britain, what would matter to me more than it does right now?
When I hear politicians speak of their patriotism, then watch them close mines, the textile industry, steel works, the fishing industry, and sell off social housing, their words ring hollow to me. I watch our rivers pumped full of sewage while shareholders count their dividends and patriots do nothing. I listen to Farage tell the people of Clacton that he has bought a house there, then fall apart when he's questioned about his taxes. I watch Sunak justify his 21% tax rate and his non-dom billionaire wife. I watch Starmer continue to supply weaponry to Israel while they slaughter children, doctors and journalists and I wonder how that ticks the box marked Great Britain. I watch the repeated affairs of the Royal Family, their hush money payments, their friendships with paedophiles, and I watch the press gloss over it like it doesn't matter. I suppose because I care about these issues, I must care about Britain, but I am absolutely being driven from it, both mentally, and probably physically, and I am far from alone.
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The things you speak of are all to do with hypocrisy, lies and corruption, and they exist everywhere where power is exercised over the powerless with little or no scrutiny, whether that be in Windsor, Westminster or the Congo.

Throughout our lives all of us struggle to define who we are as people, you have made your life choices, as have I and that's how it should be, but others have made different choices, no less valid than the ones we have made, for them who they are includes a sense of Englishness. An Englishness that exists for you, if your post is anything to go by, only in shades of black and grey.

That's how you see things, okay, but are you to climb the moral high ground with the other twats in here and piss on those that did not make those choices?

We're not talking about blind patriotism and xenophobia here, that's not what's happening right now, if it were it would be like the far right skirmishes of the 1970's and it isn't.

There are folk in here who label anyone who loves this country, it's customs and mores, who find meaning in place and ancestry, history and culture as racists and bigots. You have recoiled from your father's stock English patriotism because of it's lies and omissions, fair enough, we're old timers we've made our bed, but I'd be wary in counselling youngsters in running away from those lies too fast, for fear of running into the arms of another set of falsehoods and this thread is full of them. Not all charlatans are establishment figures out for themselves, their mirror image can be found in the nice, fair, humanitarians in here who shoot down anyone who veers from the orthodoxy.
 
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TinFoilHat said:
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You can understand giving them fair coverage, but to give them the coverage they do, and to put it in those terms is an absolute disgrace from the supposedly independent broadcaster.

Let’s be honest, they’re no independent, they are still serving their paymasters on the right.
 
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inchy14 said:
What does any of that have to do with my comments?
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Oh you didn't mean them? I got the impression that there's you, all your mates that agree with you, their mates who agree with them and the oppressed of the week, everyone else is Tommy Robinson and his sister.
 
The perfect fumble said:
The things you speak of are all to do with hypocrisy, lies and corruption, and they exist everywhere where power is exercised over the powerless with little or no scrutiny, whether that be in Whitehall, Westminster or the Congo.

Throughout our lives all of us struggle to define who we are as people, you have made your life choices, as have I and that's how it should be, but others have made different choices, no less valid than the ones we have made, for them who they are includes a sense of Englishness. An Englishness that exists for you, if your post is anything to go by, only in shades of black and grey.

That's how you see things, okay, but are you to climb the moral high ground with the other twats in here and piss on those that did not make those choices?

We're not talking about blind patriotism and xenophobia here, that's not what's happening right now, if it were it would be like the far right skirmishes of the 1970's and it isn't.

There are folk in here who label anyone who loves this country, it's customs and mores, who find meaning in place and ancestry, history and culture as racists and bigots. You have recoiled from your father's stock English patriotism because of it's lies and omissions, fair enough, we're old timers now we've made our bed, but I'd be wary in counselling youngsters in running away from those lies too fast, for fear of running into the arms of another set of falsehoods and this thread is full of them. Not all charlatans are establishment figures out for themselves, their mirror image can be found in the nice, fair, humanitarians in here who shoot down anyone who veers from the orthodoxy.
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The change is that the scrutiny will come from the young as the establishment can no longer control what they access in the ways that they did in our time. Lies are being outed, and the teachings of our youth will no longer satisfy the curious mind. We were led, and we followed. As respect for leaders falters on the altar of their corruption and greed, the truth will be sought, and will out.

Churchill will be known as a war-hero AND the man held responsible for the starvation of 3m Bengalis; and the British empire will become known for its funding of great scientific discovery, art, and culture, AND its provision of free labour by the enslaved, and the pillaging of artefacts from nations powerless to defend themselves from our strength. This will also be true of the other nations considered 'great seafarers', from Portugal, Spain, Holland, Belgium, and France, all of whom raped and pillaged their way across Africa and the Americas.

I don't understand loving a country, but I respect those for whom traditions and customs matter, just as I respect those who follow religious teachings. I simply object to the mistreatment of fellow human beings, whether it be in the Middle East or outside an asylum centre in Epping.
 
oldius said:
Churchill will be known as a war-hero AND the man held responsible for the starvation of 3m Bengalis; and the British empire will become known for its funding of great scientific discovery, art, and culture, AND its provision of free labour by the enslaved, and the pillaging of artefacts from nations powerless to defend themselves from our strength. This will also be true of the other nations considered 'great seafarers', from Portugal, Spain, Holland, Belgium, and France, all of whom raped and pillaged their way across Africa and the Americas.
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I'll return to the rest of your post tomorrow, but I have to comment on this quickly.

That's not how it will be and not for the reasons you might think or the fact you and I disagree.

The interpretation of history has dominant strands that come and go.

I'm a bit of history buff on the First World War, that war and it's major players, particularly generals like Haig and the question of German war guilt have gone through various conflicting interpretations over the last 100 years, but at any one time there was a dominant interpretation. There's a blurring as one dominant strand ebbs away to be replaced by another and there'll always be outliers, but if we're talking popular perception, the strands are clearly recognisable and seem immovable until they're not.

In short what I'm saying is Churchill will either be viewed as a villain or a hero, possibly he may be viewed by some as a hero and by others as a villain, but there'll only be a minority who view him as both hero AND villain.

And it'll be the same with the British Empire, already you've lumped a number of European Empires into the same basket and ascribed to them the same motivations and characteristics, I could write a book on why that's a big faux pas but you'll no doubt be grateful to hear I'll not be doing it.
 
oldius said:
The change is that the scrutiny will come from the young as the establishment can no longer control what they access in the ways that they did in our time. Lies are being outed, and the teachings of our youth will no longer satisfy the curious mind. We were led, and we followed. As respect for leaders falters on the altar of their corruption and greed, the truth will be sought, and will out.

Churchill will be known as a war-hero AND the man held responsible for the starvation of 3m Bengalis; and the British empire will become known for its funding of great scientific discovery, art, and culture, AND its provision of free labour by the enslaved, and the pillaging of artefacts from nations powerless to defend themselves from our strength. This will also be true of the other nations considered 'great seafarers', from Portugal, Spain, Holland, Belgium, and France, all of whom raped and pillaged their way across Africa and the Americas.

I don't understand loving a country, but I respect those for whom traditions and customs matter, just as I respect those who follow religious teachings. I simply object to the mistreatment of fellow human beings, whether it be in the Middle East or outside an asylum centre in Epping.
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I think you should have a look at some different historical accounts of the events you cite, they are in many respects casualties of the culture war. Churchill for example did not set out to deliberately starve three million indians, there was a war being fought and his shipping priorites were governed by that. Similarly denigrating colonialism has been well described by the distinguished theologian Nigel Biggar as an “important way of corroding faith in the west”. The British empire, for Biggar, “was not essentially racist, exploitative or wantonly violent”. It was born out of many motives, from “cultural curiosity” to “the vocation to lift oppression”, none of which was “morally wrong”. Britain’s “involvement in slavery was nothing out of the ordinary” but its attempts to abolish it were particularly selfless given “the higher price that British consumers would have to pay for freely produced sugar”. He concedes that the empire “did contain some appalling racial prejudice”, but this was relatively marginal. Rather, “the empire’s policies… were driven by the conviction of the basic human equality of members of all races”.
 
johnny crossan said:
I think you should have a look at some different historical accounts of the events you cite, they are in many respects casualties of the culture war. Churchill for example did not set out to deliberately starve three million indians, there was a war being fought and his shipping priorites were governed by that. Similarly denigrating colonialism has been well described by the distinguished theologian Nigel Biggar as an “important way of corroding faith in the west”. The British empire, for Biggar, “was not essentially racist, exploitative or wantonly violent”. It was born out of many motives, from “cultural curiosity” to “the vocation to lift oppression”, none of which was “morally wrong”. Britain’s “involvement in slavery was nothing out of the ordinary” but its attempts to abolish it were particularly selfless given “the higher price that British consumers would have to pay for freely produced sugar”. He concedes that the empire “did contain some appalling racial prejudice”, but this was relatively marginal. Rather, “the empire’s policies… were driven by the conviction of the basic human equality of members of all races”.
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I absolutely advocate looking at different historical accounts. My point is that is exactly what young people are doing. They will choose their truth. They will, hopefully examine Churchill from the perspective of Britain and from India, where his decision to effectively sacrifice 3 million people is viewed alongside his views and expressions about Indian people. They will learn of the Congo and Leopold's colonisation of it, and the horrific abuses that took place, as well as the rise of Belgium while others faltered. We were denied that, and were more inclined to 'believe'.

I welcome the interpretations that you quote. I understand that they are that author's truth. I don't dismiss it, nor have any reason to, and I hope that it would be considered alongside a more global view of the Empire, based on modern thinking and in terms of the different thinking at various points in history. My 'lumping' in of other colonising nations is simply as a defence against the 'whataboutists'. I have no doubt that I have much to learn of their particular histories, as the @The perfect fumble highlights. I am an educator, so my desire is for education and the revealing of truth, not in hiding it in an attempt to direct thinking.

A friend works for the National Trust. In attempting to deliver a more nuanced education, which exposes the ownership of the stately homes of Britain to the magnifying glass of human slavery, she and her colleagues are suffering daily abuse from the National Trust's dominant membership demographic, and from sections of the media, who express their disgust at her 'wokism' and encourage people to consign their membership to the bin, as many have done.

We have digressed, but contextually this is where the tension lies, and why there is such global polarisation. The dam of nationalist truth is collapsing under the weight of a tidal wave of information from uncontrolled sources, as Donald and Mandelson will now be feeling as hackers drip daily content. It can be held back no more, and it will be revealed. It is terrifying, exciting, revealing, and exposing, and some will relish it, while others will detest and reject it.
 
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The perfect fumble said:
It was said of Thatcher that she loved Britain but hated the people in it.

But you're more nuanced.

You hate Britain but only hate most of the people in it.
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Firstly I don’t hate Britain or any part of the country, how do you ‘hate’ a landmass?
Secondly I don’t ‘hate’ anyone I don’t personally know.
Thirdly I despise those who are racist, hold abhorrent views on subjects like LGBTQ, race, religion etc. whether that be in the UK or anywhere else around the world, I don’t save my disdain for those solely in Britain with those views.

I’ve no idea what you’re talking about with either of your previous 2 posts in reply to me so suggest you just leave it there.
 
Vic said:
But these people are not right-wing racists.

Perhaps they'd not bother becoming British citizens if they could rely on British promises about a permanent right to remain. (See Windrush...)
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Or maybe they see something they want to be a part of.

The miserabilists in here see nothing virtuous or commendable about this country, but clearly those folk do, the one thing you see in all these videos is how proud they are, it's clearly more than just a certificate and a passport for them. I see none of that pride from the nice, kind, caring cult in this thread.

Anyone up for pissing on those folk for abandoning their culture, their heritage, for kissing the ring of their former colonial oppressors?

 
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inchy14 said:
Firstly I don’t hate Britain or any part of the country, how do you ‘hate’ a landmass?
Secondly I don’t ‘hate’ anyone I don’t personally know.
Thirdly I despise those who are racist, hold abhorrent views on subjects like LGBTQ, race, religion etc. whether that be in the UK or anywhere else around the world, I don’t save my disdain for those solely in Britain with those views.

I’ve no idea what you’re talking about with either of your previous 2 posts in reply to me so suggest you just leave it there.
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Strikes me you don't hate anyone other than those you disagree with, which a quick back of an envelope calculation comes to millions of Brits, otherwise you're an easy going hail fellow well met.
 
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