Denton and Gorton by-election - Green Party wins

Tiattos_Waterbottle said:
lEgAlIzE dRuGs you've mooted multiple times, oPeN bOrDeRs also.

Neither of these things are accurate in shallow way you're portraying them, which you either don't know or do know and are acting in bad faith, which is the more likely.

Starmer isn't the reason for the current situation, but again, under him, we've sold them weapons, and used British servicemen to aid in Israel's campaign as current. I'm not gonna turn this into a debate on the Gaza conflict because there's a thread for it, but you're being again, either ignorant of reality or selective of it.

Scratch your head all you want, the many people ratio-ing you on my responses seem to know what I'm talking about.

All I read from that is Muslims bad unless they make our football club win and we sell them weapons so they're on our side. Says it all.
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They do want to legalise drugs and they do want open borders. Their policies is to increase migration, not decrease it. I am right in saying that. I see those things as negatives, you don’t, that’s disagreement and you don’t need to get angry.

Starmer has suspended arms sales to Israel at times, openly recognised Palestine as a future state and openly criticised Israeli policy. As I said, you can say he’s not done enough but he’s not at fault for Gaza and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous at best.

This forum is significantly further to the left than the general populace and always has been. Bragging about people agreeing with you on here is laughable. Means nothing.

You can read into what you want, make your own mind up, you don’t know me and you’re not fit to be my judge.
 
bluethrunthru said:
a practise that began yesterday?
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Nope.
I was employed at a polling station in the 1970 general election.
A family arrived and registered whereby the patriarch gathered the voting slips off the women with him and was going into the booth until he was stopped and informed he could not do that.
He was made to give the women their slips and they were supervised by the clerks voting individually.
 
The Green party got like 40% so It can't be just Muslims voting for them. I watched many celebration/result watch videos and the majority of the people there were white and a sizeable people were also old. They can twist the narrative as much as they want, but Manchester is a left wing city and people vote left wing, and in this case there was only one left wing party which was the Green. Labour ditched the left since they transformed to a Tory light.
 
youngbob said:
Just so everyone knows where we get our "transfer news" from - the "evil Moslem cabal stole the vote" conspiracy has started. Like clockwork.


View attachment 184872
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@tolmie's hairdoo Just wondering, does this mean you'd kick my brown wife out of the country? She was born here, works here, pays tax here, as did both of her parents before her dad died. Her mum came here from Malaysia as a teenager when her family decided to move for a better life. She still pays tax here, works at a school for predominantly white English special needs kids, loves what this country has done for her life, and watches EastEnders religiously. Her dad fled anti-South Asian religious and ethnic persecution in early 1970s Uganda and came to London as a refugee, built himself up from nothing, went to university, got his degree, and worked in Thatcher, Major, Blair, and Brown's governments as a civil servant, he loved Brian May and listened to Queen until the day he died at age 64. Their daughter - who has mostly turned her back on her Ismaili Muslim upbringing for Western secularism - moved from London to Manchester in the late 2010s for university and eventually married a white boy. Me. She has tattoos and drinks cocktails. If you were blind and had a conversation with her then you'd probably think she was white.

I mean fuck, if you just looked at her you'd think she was of Hindu origin. Very Indian features from her dad's side, a combination of Malaysian and Indian features from her mum's side.

My point is, every brown face in this country has a story like this and you personally do not have the ability to separate all of their stories. Instead what you've done is group all of their stories together in order to flatten the nuance, cast them as a hivemind, and justify your urge to have them all kicked out of the country. We brought them here in their millions to rebuild this country and its economy after World War II, all across the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s. We can't then be surprised and angry that they put down roots and started having children and started building houses of worship. The story of 20th century Britain has brown people in several chapters.

I'm very close to Islam by marriage now so I see a lot of the inside - the good, the bad, and the ugly. I see the social conservatism on a daily basis and it makes me uncomfortable, but that's partly because I'm not keen on organised religion in general and how prejudiced and conservative it can make somebody behave, even in small ways. Some women from the mosque have approached my mother-in-law in the past and have asked her if she knows her daughter's dating a gora. There's gossip, one-upmanship, a lot of guilt-tripping, women are discouraged from attending the burials of their loved ones after funerals. But then, after some time, the whole thing clicked for me. In terms of how its values and attitudes, Islam is where Christianity was about 50-60 years ago. The second generation children born in the 1980s and 1990s are having the same awakenings that my parents had after being born in the 60s: that there is an alternative to the religion they were brought up under.

On that, my wife's parents seemed to have similar values to my grandparents. My grandparents were religious, stern, stoic people who followed traditional rules, fit into traditional gender roles, and watched on in disbelief as their children turned their backs on Christianity, stopped going to church, and started living more liberal lives. You see something happen every now and again when a local council turns a church into a mosque: outrage that something like that could happen. This outrage comes from people who spend Sunday mornings in bed. If people started going to church they'd stop turning them into mosques, but we stopped going to church generations ago. The same thing will happen to mosques over the next 20-30 years as the older, stricter, more god-fearing generation dies off and the more liberal, non-religious kids find other things to do. Mosques will be turned into secular community centres, market halls, libraries, work hubs, and other things like that. Repurposed like churches.

Kids of Muslim immigrants who came to this country 50 years ago are turning their backs on Islam. There's a big panic occurring among older generations of Muslims in the UK, that their children don't seem to have faith, don't go to mosque as much, and are living more Western and secular lives as they realise what personal freedom actually is. Let that process continue, imo. If we can replace religion with community then we'll be laughing, it just takes time. That's what extremist Salafis like Bin Laden and ISIS can't stand, that Muslims who come to the West are seeing that they can live lives without religion, they can drink and gamble and get tattoos, and collaborate with white people. You're saying this country is lost. I disagree. I think bringing more religious people into a secular way of life is a way of showing that this country is actually winning. There will always be those who cling on, who believe in religious supremacy, but they will fade away as alternatives to their religion are gradually, slowly presented to them.

Take the three generations of my wife's family. My wife's gran was brought to England from Malaysia in the 1980s. She couldn't speak a word of English because her husband forbade it, she never worked for herself, she never drove, she never had her own bank account, she never did anything except keep her house tidy, go to mosque every day, and give birth to six children. My wife's mum, my mother-in-law, came to this country not knowing English, expecting to never work, expecting to just produce kids for her husband. She was ready to live her mum's life. My late father-in-law said to her, "No, you're going to get fluent in English, get a job, learn how to drive, make your own money, and live your own life". Since the early 1990s she's fluent in English, drives, works, goes to mosque less than her mum did, and has lived without her husband on her own for four years now following his all-too-premature death. He retired in 2015 after recovering from cancer and a stroke so my mother-in-law was the breadwinner for the last seven years of her husband's life anyway. And now my wife - born in England, works in advertising, earns a shit-tonne more than her husband does, drives, owns a house, has tattoos and drinks, married a white boy and only goes to mosque once or twice a year out of obligation. That process is reflected across many Muslim families in this country. Let it carry on.
 
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Semper aggressus said:
What is the Greens policy on defence? Will they keep our deterrent? Will they support Ukraine? Can they be trusted not to give away territories like Gibraltar and the Falklands who’s populations have voted to remain British?

What are their tax policies? Will they decide to take even more from higher earners?

What about their approach to welfare, will any of it be strictly means tested?

Will those of us who enjoy the likes of Shakespeare, opera, traditional British pubs and are actually proud of this country’s achievements in industry and in battles for freedom be castigated as racist?
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To answer the rest of your diatribe, apologies I didn't in the first place.

No, they will likely lower funding of Trident because we're not actually in control of it and cannot fire it without the permission of a country currently run by a senile megalomaniac, as it's a poor deterrent and 99% of the world get on fine without one.

They support Ukraine and advocate for continued military and humanitarian aid.

They respect the right to all British Overseas Territories rights to self determination.

They will tax the highest earners more in proportion with the fact the poorest in society pay way more tax than they should, people earning 40 grand a year shake like shitting dogs over policies aimed at millionaires. Simping for millionaires is fucking dumb, but you probs like Nige, so here we are.

Their views on Welfare are that it's punitive, because it is, overly complex, which is perhaps purposeful to stop claims, and inefficient. Funny how people whinge about benefits but stay schtum on stuff like the triple lock or means testing winter fuel tax.
 
youngbob said:
@tolmie's hairdoo Just wondering, does this mean you'd kick my brown wife out of the country? She was born here, works here, pays tax here, as did both of her parents before her dad died. Her mum came here from Malaysia as a teenager when her family decided to move for a better life. She still pays tax here, works at a school for predominantly white English special needs kids, loves what this country has done for her life, and watches EastEnders religiously. Her dad fled anti-South Asian religious and ethnic persecution in early 1970s Uganda and came to London as a refugee, built himself up from nothing, went to university, got his degree, and worked in Thatcher, Major, Blair, and Brown's governments as a civil servant, he loved Brian May and listened to Queen until the day he died at age 64. Their daughter - who has mostly turned her back on her Ismaili Muslim upbringing for Western secularism - moved from London to Manchester in the late 2010s for university and eventually married a white boy. Me. She has tattoos and drinks cocktails. If you were blind and had a conversation with her then you'd probably think she was white.

I mean fuck, if you just looked at her you'd think she was of Hindu origin. Very Indian features from her dad's side, a combination of Malaysian and Indian features from her mum's side.

My point is, every brown face in this country has a story like this and you personally do not have the ability to separate all of their stories. Instead what you've done is group all of their stories together in order to flatten the nuance, cast them as a hivemind, and justify your urge to have them all kicked out of the country. We brought them here in their millions to rebuild this country and its economy after World War II, all across the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s. We can't then be surprised and angry that they put down roots and started having children and started building houses of worship. The story of 20th century Britain has brown people in several chapters.

I'm very close to Islam by marriage now so I see a lot of the inside - the good, the bad, and the ugly. I see the social conservatism on a daily basis and it makes me uncomfortable, but that's partly because I'm not keen on organised religion in general and how prejudiced and conservative it can make somebody behave, even in small ways. Some women from the mosque have approached my mother-in-law in the past and have asked her if she knows her daughter's dating a gora. There's gossip, one-upmanship, a lot of guilt-tripping, women are discouraged from attending the burials of their loved ones after funerals. But then, after some time, the whole thing clicked for me. In terms of how its values and attitudes, Islam is where Christianity was about 50-60 years ago. The children of Muslim parents who moved to this country in the 70s and 80s are having the same awakenings that my parents had after being born in the 60s: that there is alternative to the religion they were brought up under.

On that, my wife's parents seemed to have similar values to my grandparents. My grandparents were religious, stern, stoic people who followed traditional rules, fit into traditional gender roles, and watched on in disbelief as their children turned their backs on Christianity, stopped going to church, and started living more liberal lives. You see something happen every now and again when a local council turns a church into a mosque: outrage that something like that could happen. This outrage comes from people who spend Sunday mornings in bed. If people started going to church they'd stop turning them into mosques, but we stopped going to church generations ago. The same thing will happen to mosques over the next 20-30 years as the older, stricter, more god-fearing generation dies off and the more liberal, non-religious kids find other things to do. Mosques will be turned into secular community centres, market halls, libraries, work hubs, and other things like that. Repurposed like churches.

Kids of Muslim immigrants who came to this country 50 years ago are turning their backs on Islam. There's a big panic occurring among older generations of Muslims in the UK, that their children don't seem to have faith, don't go to mosque as much, and are living more Western and secular lives as they realise what personal freedom actually is. Let that process continue, imo. If we can replace religion with community then we'll be laughing, it just takes time. That's what extremist Salafis like Bin Laden and ISIS can't stand, that Muslims who come to the West are seeing that they can live lives without religion, they can drink and gamble and get tattoos, and collaborate with white people. You're saying this country is lost. I disagree. I think bringing more religious people into a secular way of life is a way of showing that this country is actually winning. There will always be those who cling on, who believe in religious supremacy, but they will fade away as alternatives to their religion are gradually, slowly presented to them.

Take the three generations of my wife's family. My wife's gran was brought to England from Malaysia in the 1980s. She couldn't speak a word of English because her husband forbade it, she never worked for herself, she never drove, she never had her own bank account, she never did anything except keep her house tidy, go to mosque every day, and give birth to six children. My wife's mum, my mother-in-law, came to this country not knowing English, expecting to never work, expecting to just produce kids for her husband. She was ready to live her mum's life. My late father-in-law said to her, "No, you're going to get fluent in English, get a job, learn how to drive, make your own money, and live your own life". Since the early 1990s she's fluent in English, drives, works, goes to mosque less than her mum did, and has lived without her husband on her own for four years now following his all-too-premature death. He retired in 2015 after recovering from cancer and a stroke so my mother-in-law was the breadwinner for the last seven years of her husband's life anyway. And now my wife - born in England, works in advertising, earns a shit-tonne more than her husband does, drives, owns a house, has tattoos and drinks, goes to mosque maybe once or twice a year out of obligation, married to a white boy and only goes to mosque once or twice a year out of obligation. That process is reflected across many Muslim families in this country. Let it carry on.
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Cracking post, Bob.
 
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
This is just like the City title win in 2012 - fantastic and yet how many didn't like it and have never liked it since! 'Twill be interesting to see if it can be buit upon. I suspect Nige will be unhappy as he thought his juggernaut would continue rolling. For those who can remember, did the Tories ever lose a by-election whilst holding a thirteen thousand majority?
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Such majorities are chicken feed. Remember Owen Paterson? Try 21,000:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-shropshire-59693102
 
aminegriffy1 said:
The Green party got like 40% so It can't be just Muslims voting for them. I watched many celebration/result watch videos and the majority of the people there were white and a sizeable people were also old. They can twist the narrative as much as they want, but Manchester is a left wing city and people vote left wing, and in this case there was only one left wing party which was the Green. Labour ditched the left since they transformed to a Tory light.
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The idea that a seat that is 30% non-christian ( not all Muslim not all of voting age ) was lost because of "family voting" when the Party that won got 50% more votes than Reform is clearly for the birds but its very Trumpian so suits Reforms playbook
 
Ban-jani said:
The Green’s want to make it illegal for me to rent my house out to someone, whilst wanting to make crack cocaine and fentanyl legal, they want a world without borders and want anyone to come to this country “if they wish to do so”, whilst using taxpayers money to house them.

It’s lunacy, at least they’re honest I suppose.
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They’re not talking about targeting someone who rents a property or two out. They’re on about the super rich hoovering up property and land banking. Probably want to do something about water companies too. Don’t worry though they’ve no chance off of winning an election. So not much will be done for the working classes.

As for the drugs policy a lot of people in other parties agree but aren’t brave enough to put their head above the parapet and say it. As they know the right wing media and divs like Starmer will just attack it with their childish responses. Most who would vote Green anyway would agree but it wouldn’t have helped gain many votes in this. As so many who would just read the headlines on it would think he’s a lunatic.

As for them running a dirty campaign by mentioning a genocide they’ve been talking about for ages. How dare they talk about a government who have been complicit in it.

The ones who have been a disgrace in all this have been Labour. With Starmer, making out he wants everyone on heroine and their tweet comparing Polanski to an evil fictional Jewish person. Not to mention their made up poll they pushed saying that only they could stop Reform. Finally the van outside the polling station yesterday basically implying the Greens wanted drugs so women could be date raped. Shameful stuff and they’ve lost the left and the right!
 
Semper aggressus said:
What is the Greens policy on defence? Will they keep our deterrent? Will they support Ukraine? Can they be trusted not to give away territories like Gibraltar and the Falklands who’s populations have voted to remain British?

What are their tax policies? Will they decide to take even more from higher earners?

What about their approach to welfare, will any of it be strictly means tested?

Will those of us who enjoy the likes of Shakespeare, opera, traditional British pubs and are actually proud of this country’s achievements in industry and in battles for freedom be castigated as racist?
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You are Mark Francois and I claim £5.

Screenshot_20260227-102142_Google.jpg
 
roubaixtuesday said:
I think democracy volunteers are a reputable group.

Family voting is coercing family members to vote as directed. It's real, not just in ethnic minorities though, and its definitely not why Reform lost here.

democracyvolunteers.org

Democracy Volunteers Observing elections to improve democracy

We are are a volunteer election observer group based in the UK but we also work abroad. We are always looking for new observers and students for our courses!
democracyvolunteers.org democracyvolunteers.org
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I did a bit of digging on them last night just out of curiosity, nothing scandalous but it was thought provoking.

From what I could find their funding base isn't fully transparent, which is in itself a bit disappointing for an organisation of this nature, but from what I could gather the two main sources of funding are the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust and the Andrew Wainwright Trust. JRRT are one of four Rowntree trusts but unlike the other three is a Ltd company; they have to be because of their political nature. There was a bit of a controversy in Scotland where the main Joseph Rowntree Foundation made it very clear the JRRT was nothing to do with them because the JRRT had paid the legal fees of a slightly dodgy Lib Dem politician, long story short from following the breadcrumb trail, the JRRT seem to be at least Lib Dem influenced. So your main funder being to some degree partisan isn't an ideal look. Perhaps more interestingly the other stated funder, the AWT, seems to have funded them explicitly to look at Family Voting. Now that in itself isn't a bad thing but there's the old adage that you get the behaviours you incentivise. Looking at DV's previous electoral reports, an emphasis on family voting does come through an awful lot.

So whilst they don't seem to be dodgy, I was left a bit unsure of the degree to which their work was quite as non-partisan as their positioning claims. I suspect if this has legs then the issue of family voting, DV and the Council themselves will all rightly be subject to further scrutiny.

As you say though, the bottom line is that isn't why Reform lost and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
 
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Gabriel said:
An interesting counterfactual. Given that he would have been standing as almost an heir apparent, I think he might have won, but it would have been nip and tuck. Could have been the first prime minister to represent part of Manchester since Balfour.
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Churchill?
 
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