US & Israel attack Iran

[Postman Pep]

The problem with Mearscheimer is that just like Galloway his position is basically that the West is always wrong and always going to lose. Rewind to Ukraine and he was blaming NATO for Ukraine being invaded as if it was a security concern when the fact is (a) Ukraine was never considered for NATO membership, (b) NATO has never started a war with Russia and (c) Putin had zero qualms admitting that his reasoning for the war was simply that in his ideology, Ukraine is Russian territory and always has been. JM's holds contradictory believes on this too, ie NATO is a paper tiger, and NATO is an existential threat to Russia - both can't be true. There's also a circular logic to it because even if Ukraine wanted to be in NATO, it was only to protect itself from Russian aggression, which Russia invading a non-NATO Ukraine only proved to be a valid position.

So as tempting as it is to agree with people like that when they end up on my side of the debate, I have to just discount anything they say because their positions aren't really grounded in reality. Broken clocks and all that.

So someone who long predicted the consequences of the path the US was heading down in talking up NATO expansion, not to mention meddling in internal Ukrainian politics (they weren't just there to hand out cookies), can be dismissed as not having positions grounded in reality?

Were the likes of George Kennan and Bill Burns also talking out of their arse? Not even sure voices like that are in the room nowadays rather than being listened to.

 

[Dazzle84]

Iran trying to expand war by firing at Turkey - Nato shot down missile

It's almost as if every analysis of avoiding open conflict with a nut job state that is fully prepared for the long game was spot on

There will be whole school syllabuses dedicated to this folly in future history lessons. Probably chronicled in songs and on cave walls the way it's going

 

[domalino]

So someone who long predicted the consequences of the path the US was heading down in talking up NATO expansion, not to mention meddling in internal Ukrainian politics (they weren't just there to hand out cookies), can be dismissed as not having positions grounded in reality?

I’m just going to post the bit of my comment you should have read the first time.

the fact is (a) Ukraine was never considered for NATO membership, (b) NATO has never started a war with Russia and (c) Putin had zero qualms admitting that his reasoning for the war was simply that in his ideology, Ukraine is Russian territory and always has been.

JM holds contradictory believes on this too, ie NATO is a paper tiger, and NATO is an existential threat to Russia - both can't be true.

There's also a circular logic to it because even if Ukraine wanted to be in NATO, it was only to protect itself from Russian aggression, which Russia invading a non-NATO Ukraine only proved to be a valid position.


One of the benefits of JM being so famous is that his position has been completely and utterly debunked by dozens of scholars, politicians and geopolitical experts AND destroyed by the person who started the war clearly explaining why he invaded and it having nothing to do with NATO.

If you want to get into this again reply in the Ukraine war thread and I’m happy to, this isn’t a contentious issue, he was just wrong.

 

[domalino]

You have to laugh when the UAE and Saudi keep coming out with these comments, as if Iran is the one that’s made things difficult in the region and not, them hosting and housing the Americans attacking Iran and allowing their territory to be used to launch attacks.

It really does seem like they were convinced that hosting US bases would make them completely impervious to any retaliation.

 

[Giovinco]

You have to laugh when the UAE and Saudi keep coming out with these comments, as if Iran is the one that’s made things difficult in the region and not, them hosting and housing the Americans attacking Iran and allowing their territory to be used to launch attacks.

It really does seem like they were convinced that hosting US bases would make them completely impervious to any retaliation.

The UAE have military bases because Iran would have dominated the region without them

 

[Vic]

Isn’t Chadderton closed for scheduled maintenance?

Currently there’s no issue getting fuel but where there’s been a local stampede, it’s inevitable because they don’t have fuel on tap and have to wait for their next top-up.

As for WW3, we have been on the precipice for years with lots going on behind the scenes. Whether the world would give up their own to go full scale, is a very different matter.

As they say, Stay Calm and Carry On.

I can't see there would be a "local stampede" to cause a fuel shortage. I assume most people filled up when the war started and are just going for top-ups so there won't be many actually filling an empty tank.

It was interesting that one big thing the Canadian-Chinese "professor" got wrong was that the UK would be joining in this nonsense.

 

[Vic]

Iran trying to expand war by firing at Turkey - Nato shot down missile

It's almost as if every analysis of avoiding open conflict with a nut job state that is fully prepared for the long game was spot on

There will be whole school syllabuses dedicated to this folly in future history lessons. Probably chronicled in songs and on cave walls the way it's going

"We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too"

 

[Scottyboi]

The cheeky bastards.

Karoline Leavitt stated that Donald Trump is interested in Arab countries paying Washington's costs for the military operation against Iran.

"I think that's something the President would be very interested in encouraging them to do. I think you'll hear more about from him."

 

[Snape]

You have to laugh when the UAE and Saudi keep coming out with these comments, as if Iran is the one that’s made things difficult in the region and not, them hosting and housing the Americans attacking Iran and allowing their territory to be used to launch attacks.

It really does seem like they were convinced that hosting US bases would make them completely impervious to any retaliation.

Fair point on the bases, but Iran's been a difficult neighbour since long before the Americans set up shop there. The Tanker Wars in the 80s, funding Hezbollah, the Aramco drone strikes, arming the Houthis to lob missiles at Saudi cities — this is a 40 year pattern. The Gulf states didn't invent the threat, they responded to it. The US base question is worth debating but it doesn't cancel out that history.

 

[Blue Mist]

Iran trying to expand war by firing at Turkey - Nato shot down missile

It's almost as if every analysis of avoiding open conflict with a nut job state that is fully prepared for the long game was spot on

There will be whole school syllabuses dedicated to this folly in future history lessons. Probably chronicled in songs and on cave walls the way it's going

My take on it is this.
If Iran bombs enough countries eventually they will join together and tell Trump and his puppet master to reign it in.
Its quite a clever strategy, fair play to them.

 

[domalino]

Fair point on the bases, but Iran's been a difficult neighbour since long before the Americans set up shop there. The Tanker Wars in the 80s, funding Hezbollah, the Aramco drone strikes, arming the Houthis to lob missiles at Saudi cities — this is a 40 year pattern. The Gulf states didn't invent the threat, they responded to it. The US base question is worth debating but it doesn't cancel out that history.

Come off it.

The tanker wars happened because the gulf countries directly supported Husseins invasion of Iran. It was also started by Iraq, not Iran and the US bases in the region predate that by 40 years anyway!

Hezbollah has nothing to do with the gulf.

The reason they’re difficult neighbours is simple - Iran overthrew their monarchy.

 

[Snape]

Come off it.

The tanker wars happened because the gulf countries directly supported Husseins invasion of Iran. It was also started by Iraq, not Iran and the US bases in the region predate that by 40 years anyway!

Hezbollah has nothing to do with the gulf.

The reason they’re difficult neighbours is simple - Iran overthrew their monarchy.

Iraq kept fighting for six years after they'd already won back their territory, that's not self defence anymore. They weren't just hitting Iraqi ships, they were targeting Kuwaiti ones too. Kuwait had to get the Americans to reflag their tankers just to move oil.
Khobar Towers, that was Iran linked, on Saudi soil. So Hezbollah absolutely has Gulf relevance.
Khomeini literally said he wanted to export the revolution and topple the Gulf monarchies.

 

[yeseye]

My take on it is this.
If Iran bombs enough countries eventually they will join together and tell Trump and his puppet master to reign it in.
Its quite a clever strategy, fair play to them.

I would never call bombing Turkey a clever strategy..

 

[domalino]

Iraq kept fighting for six years after they'd already won back their territory, that's not self defence anymore. They weren't just hitting Iraqi ships, they were targeting Kuwaiti ones too. Kuwait had to get the Americans to reflag their tankers just to move oil.
Khobar Towers, that was Iran linked, on Saudi soil. So Hezbollah absolutely has Gulf relevance.
Khomeini literally said he wanted to export the revolution and topple the Gulf monarchies.

Iraq attacked Iran bound ships for 5 years without response from Iran, trying to bait Iran into closing the strait of Hormuz and bring the Americans into it. Then the Americans joined anyway, so Iran started sinking ships themselves.

You cannot seriously be putting the Tanker wars on Iran.

It is an absolute fact that as much as I hate the Islamic Republic, the US and their gulf neighbours were attacking them either directly or indirectly from the moment - literally the week - the revolution happened. To then say they’re the issue because they responded is insane.

The fact that some of these countries are just as authoritarian and repressive as the IR just makes it even more laughable that they’re the bad guys in the region while the Saudis are “good”.

The gulf countries were terrified their own populations would do what Irans did to the shah, lobbied for and supported every attack on them for 40 years, bet on US protection and have found out it’s not worth the billions they spent on it.

 

[Snape]

Iraq attacked Iran bound ships for 5 years without response from Iran, trying to bait Iran into closing the strait of Hormuz and bring the Americans into it. Then the Americans joined anyway, so Iran started sinking ships themselves.

You cannot seriously be putting the Tanker wars on Iran.

Fair, Iraq did start the ship attacks and Iran showed more restraint than they get credit for early on. I'll give you that.
But the US reflagging Kuwaiti tankers was a direct response to Kuwait asking for protection, and Iran still mined international waters and attacked vessels with no stake in the war. That's the bit that alarmed the region regardless of how it started.

 

[fulabeer]

Is he? Can't say I've seen him.



Sorry.

Yes, he seems to pop up mainly in uncredited cameos. I didn't even know who he was, but my kids did.
Might be just the type of films i'm watching at the moment. No exactly deep movies etc.

 

[The Stockport Iniesta]

Has the speech by Josephine Guilbeau been posted? She's ex US military, and worked in anti terrorism and in various agencies for 17 years.

It's very powerful and good on her for having the balls to say it as it is.

 

[fulabeer]

Less fuel

People have to walk/cycle.

Obesity crisis solved!

We're all gonna be ripped guys and gals!

What if you own an EV?
My overnight EV electric rate just almost halved! (and they added two extra hours)
Who would imagine Trump helping the EV industry!

 

[TinFoilHat]

What if you own an EV?
My overnight EV electric rate just almost halved! (and they added two extra hours)
Who would imagine Trump helping the EV industry!

That's some irony there.

 

[Itd]

Kiev Nazi to the rescue of Tel Aviv Nazis. The despicable ****.

Over the past four years Iran has supplied kamikaze drones to Russia that have killed many Ukrainian civilians. Just last year Ukraine estimates around 54000 Iranian drones were launched at the country. On top of that, Iran also shared the know-how so Russia could also start making very similar drones to keep attacking Ukrainians.

Ukraine is not coming "to the rescue of Tel Aviv", they’re making financial deals with Gulf countries that need their tech and training. That matters even more right now since Trump has been undermining Ukraine’s defense efforts in different ways to pressure them into giving up more territory.

Iran’s regime is directly responsible for a lot of innocent Ukrainian deaths. Ukraine more than ever really needs funding to defend itself against Iranian-origin drones. And do you seriously think it’s wrong for them to help Gulf countries defend themselves against those same drones in exchange for money and new alliances?

Also, the “Kiev Nazi” just shows you’re repeating propaganda you picked up from some pro-Russia account on social media without really thinking. There are Nazis in every country, even in unexpected places like Latin America or Asia. But if you want an easy to understand meme about Ukraine based on a real quote: