Rony Lopes

[twosips]

Just out of interest how many 17/18 year olds played for the rags/Arsenal last season?

Firstly mate, of the list I mentioned, not all of them are 17/18. Some are 19 too, with a 20 year old. So a real mixture. Bear in mind only one player got a chance last season. We used Pozo a few times, mainly through sheer desperation and out of position, and that was it, aside from once when were absolutely mullering Shef Wednesday at home and he got a late sub appearance. No one else was used. Celina and Ambrose were both left on the bench i think, the latter frustratingly despite being 3-0 up at home to WBA, with Pellers preferring to bring on Sinclair instead. But nada. Zilch.

On to the other two...United gave about 18 appearances to James Wilson. Around ten to Blackett, over ten to McNair and Lingard, Thorpe, Michael Keane and Perreira all got a game too, and would have had more if they'd not performed so laughably bad in the League cup.

Arsenal gave games to Maitland-Niles, Stefan O'Connor, Isaac Hayden (debut in the champions league no less..) and Zelalem as well as using Akpom many times as an impact sub. Gnabry would have definitely played too, and a fair few times, if he wasn't injured all season.

I could argue they finished their development of Coquellin and Bellerin too by giving them games I guess, but that's not really necessary, likewise with Januszaj. Point being, some of these are very, very young and they're at clubs who do have a reputation of giving them very early experience knowing that it'll give them benefits in the long run. As it stands, we simply don't do it. Ands its baffling.

Arsenal and United do give their kids a go. I'm envious of that. Even if its just a token run out, that token run out goes a long way in the development of a player.

 

[twosips]

Why last season ? Why not over the past 20 years or so ? If we have a look at what Utd have now, ie James Wilson for instance, now age 19 (in Dec), ' 2014, Wilson was given his first taste of first-team action on 5 April with a place on the bench for the 4–0 away win over Newcastle United. He made his senior debut a month later when he started a Premier League match at home to Hull City on 6 May'

Januzai (20 last Feb): ' Januzaj made his competitive debut for Manchester United against Wigan Athletic on 11 August 2013'

Beckham: 17. Giggs 17.

And Arsenal, for example: Walcott was playing for England already. Milner at Leeds ? Sterling at Liverpool ?

There are 1000s across football. They don't necessarily stay in the team or even at the club. Beckham was loaned out afterwards for example, like Harry Kane.

Yep, all this. But as you can see in my post above anyway, Nev, the stats still do back it up. Many for both, compared to one for us. And that wasn't even the most productive term for both clubs in terms of giving kids a chance either historically, yet the numbers are still vastly better than ours.

 

[PragueBlue]

Why last season

Because before last season those players named, most likely wouldn't have been ready yet the poster quoted felt they would have played at least 5 times each at the rage or Arsenal. Was just interested to see if that would have likely been the case.

We had no problem giving youth a chance when we were crap and we haven't had any real prospects since the takeover until now. I doubt very many 17/18 year olds have been playing regularly for one of the top teams in recent years. Some are just going to have to be patient. I'm not sure why we're in such a rush to get them into the team. At their age, they still have time very much on their side.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Because before last season those players named, most likely wouldn't have been ready yet the poster quoted felt they would have played at least 5 times each at the rage or Arsenal. Was just interested to see if that would have likely been the case.

We had no problem giving youth a chance when we were crap and we haven't had any real prospects since the takeover until now. I doubt very many 17/18 year olds have been playing regularly for one of the top teams in recent years. Some are just going to have to be patient. I'm not sure why we're in such a rush to get them into the team. At their age, they still have time very much on their side.

That's totally illogical. It's the age of the players which matters not the year! If Utd used a 17 year old in 2011, it's no different to City using one in 2015!

 

[twosips]

Because before last season those players named, most likely wouldn't have been ready yet the poster quoted felt they would have played at least 5 times each at the rage or Arsenal. Was just interested to see if that would have likely been the case.

We had no problem giving youth a chance when we were crap and we haven't had any real prospects since the takeover until now. I doubt very many 17/18 year olds have been playing regularly for one of the top teams in recent years. Some are just going to have to be patient. I'm not sure why we're in such a rush to get them into the team. At their age, they still have time very much on their side.

I meant five times over the last couple of years etc. I wouldn't expect a 17 year old to have made five, but i'd expect the really talented 19 year olds to have done so at least and some of the 18 year olds. The twenty year olds would be on at least 15/20 knowing Ferguson and Wenger. Evans would have had made his debut for Fergie about about 18, and played in about 10 games since then at least. Ntcham would have done similar, seeing as he's 19, and Angelino and Maffeo would have most likely made their debuts already by now aged seventeen before being loaned aged 18 probably, or even given more games the season after.

The point is not that its a rush, more that they're getting their development wrong which is potentially costing us millions and millions of pounds in wasted transfer fees on players like Fernando, or Sinclair or whoever else we all moan about. We could make these kids go stale. Our kids could potentially save us a fucking load of money, if we just let them actually get at taste and see if they excel. They are good enough to be tested that way, we're just not doing it right.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I meant five times over the last couple of years etc. I wouldn't expect a 17 year old to have made five, but i'd expect the really talented 19 year olds to have done so at least and some of the 18 year olds. The twenty year olds would be on at least 15/20 knowing Ferguson and Wenger. Evans would have had made his debut for Fergie about about 18, and played in about 10 games since then at least. Ntcham would have done similar, seeing as he's 19, and Angelino and Maffeo would have most likely made their debuts already by now aged seventeen before being loaned aged 18 probably, or even given more games the season after.

The point is not that its a rush, more that they're getting their development wrong which is potentially costing us millions and millions of pounds in wasted transfer fees on players like Fernando, or Sinclair or whoever else we all moan about. We could make these kids go stale. Our kids could potentially save us a fucking load of money, if we just let them actually get at taste and see if they excel. They are good enough to be tested that way, we're just not doing it right.

Devante Cole would have played for Utd. Irrespective of whether he is going to make it at that level or not, he would have been given game time by now, if he played for Utd, or Arsenal, or Everton, or Spurs etc etc. But not at Chelsea.

 

[twosips]

Devante Cole would have played for Utd. Irrespective of whether he is going to make it at that level or not, he would have been given game time by now, if he played for Utd, or Arsenal, or Everton, or Spurs etc etc. But not at Chelsea.

Yep, and if (or when) he fell short, they'd probably blag some team into paying about £5m for him. They might've even done a Welbeck of him, made him into a functional, but limited squad player and sold him for £15m to some fools.

 

[dan.j.mcfc]

Just out of interest how many 17/18 year olds played for the rags/Arsenal last season?

No 17/18 year old immediately spring to mind for either club. I think Wilson from Utd was 18 at the start of last season possibly.

Arsenal had players like Bellerin playing in the CL and FA cup final.

There's absolutely no question though, younger players get more game time at the likes of Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool. Hopefully this will soon change.

Wilson, McNair, Blackett, Bellerin, Gnabry, Chambers, Ibe, Ojo, Rossiter, Origi...While not looking like they will ever be absolute world beaters, they all get the chance to be in and around the first team, from a progression point of view it's something we rarely offer our best youngsters other than during a pre-season tour.

 

[PragueBlue]

Firstly mate, of the list I mentioned, not all of them are 17/18. Some are 19 too, with a 20 year old. So a real mixture. Bear in mind only one player got a chance last season. We used Pozo a few times, mainly through sheer desperation and out of position, and that was it, aside from once when were absolutely mullering Shef Wednesday at home and he got a late sub appearance. No one else was used. Celina and Ambrose were both left on the bench i think, the latter frustratingly despite being 3-0 up at home to WBA, with Pellers preferring to bring on Sinclair instead. But nada. Zilch.

On to the other two...United gave about 18 appearances to James Wilson. Around ten to Blackett, over ten to McNair and Lingard, Thorpe, Michael Keane and Perreira all got a game too, and would have had more if they'd not performed so laughably bad in the League cup.

Arsenal gave games to Maitland-Niles, Stefan O'Connor, Isaac Hayden (debut in the champions league no less..) and Zelalem as well as using Akpom many times as an impact sub. Gnabry would have definitely played too, and a fair few times, if he wasn't injured all season.

I could argue they finished their development of Coquellin and Bellerin too by giving them games I guess, but that's not really necessary, likewise with Januszaj. Point being, some of these are very, very young and they're at clubs who do have a reputation of giving them very early experience knowing that it'll give them benefits in the long run. As it stands, we simply don't do it. Ands its baffling.

Arsenal and United do give their kids a go. I'm envious of that. Even if its just a token run out, that token run out goes a long way in the development of a player.

Thanks for the info. Haven't heard of any of those Arsenal players before (excepting Gnabry). Not sure on the ages of those players as a comparison but again I don't see any great need to rush them into the first team. I'm sure when Pellegrini thinks they are ready and able to contribute, they'll get their chances and he has shown willing to use them in friendlies.

 

[twosips]

For what its worth, im not slagging off the club. I think what they've done is incredible. They're building an absolute machine over at the CFA. Some immensely talented kids coming through, but we've just gotta get into a habit of actually having the balls to use them. Chelsea have been winning FA Youth Cups for ages now, but they never give these kids a go so what's the point?

 

[domalino]

Devante Cole would have played for Utd. Irrespective of whether he is going to make it at that level or not, he would have been given game time by now, if he played for Utd, or Arsenal, or Everton, or Spurs etc etc. But not at Chelsea.

I don't think that's true. Ravel Morrison was supposed to be their most talented Youth player ever and he never managed a game in the 4 years he was there.

 

[twosips]

Thanks for the info. Haven't heard of any of those Arsenal players before (excepting Gnabry). Not sure on the ages of those players as a comparison but again I don't see any great need to rush them into the first team. I'm sure when Pellegrini thinks they are ready and able to contribute, they'll get their chances and he has shown willing to use them in friendlies.

I guess that's just where we'll have to disagree. Friendlies don't really mean anything really, especially when they only had 7 first team players available on tour initially so he basically had to choose a load to actually have a team. I don't trust Pellegrini to use them as it stands as all the evidence and logic points towards him, and City in recent history, not being good at it. The only reason to suggest he will is just blind faith really, nowt else. Time will tell I guess.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Thanks for the info. Haven't heard of any of those Arsenal players before (excepting Gnabry). Not sure on the ages of those players as a comparison but again I don't see any great need to rush them into the first team. I'm sure when Pellegrini thinks they are ready and able to contribute, they'll get their chances and he has shown willing to use them in friendlies.

Well put it this way, either City are right & all those other teams who brought through young players at that age were wrong, or they were right & we are wrong. I'm looking at our teams from the past few years, & don't see that many home produced players over 21 in our Champions League squad, or our Premier League squad. I see 4 empty spaces.

 

[BigOscar]

Name these handful of games...

The only one where i remember him playing very well was the one against West Ham away in the Carling Cup Semis.

I think if Pellegrini really rated him higher than Iheanacho, Garcia or Denayer, he would have played Lopes just as much. The thing i see with Lopes is, he flutters in and out of games too much. No doubting the potential, but as stated, i just see more in young Iheanacho, seems brimming with confidence everytime he plays. Denayer is by far my favourite though, his composure for one so young is brilliant.

Watford FA Cup, on for 2 minutes and scores to become our youngest ever scorer
Wigan CoC, starts and looked completely at home in an excellent team performance
West Ham CoC smi first leg, came on for last 20 minutes when we were already 5-0 up and cruising, don't remember much about it
West Ham in CoC semi, assists 2 goals and is named man of the match.
Watford FA Cup, struggles to get into the game as part of a shambolic team performance and subbed after an hour

Those are the handful of games he's played for the club. Randomly it seems he's only allowed to play against teams beginning with a W?

 

[Neville Kneville]

I don't think that's true. Ravel Morrison was supposed to be their most talented Youth player ever and he never managed a game in the 4 years he was there.

Why even bother saying something like that, when it's not true ? It would take you ten seconds to look it up.

 

[greasedupdeafguy]

Pellegrini has been an abosulutele joke with youth tbh, he would rather have three full backs on the bench than give barker a spot who was in tremendous form last season. Even the last day against southampton, zero to play we dont see one youngster on the bench. Even when lopes actually got a chance, and got two assists against west ham we never saw him again the rest of the season.

 

[twosips]

I don't think that's true. Ravel Morrison was supposed to be their most talented Youth player ever and he never managed a game in the 4 years he was there.

Not technically true mate. Not even close. He made his debut aged back in the 2010-2011 season aged 17 or 18, which fits what Nev was saying about giving their brightest their debuts very earwly, yet shit like this kept happening so it never really took off. He did make a couple of more appearances though before he basically left due to disciplinary reasons.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/feb/19/ravel-morrison-manchester-united

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...n-Manchester-United-starlet-s-on-road-to-ruin

 

[Severus]

TBH our youth are good but the manager is under the pressure of the expectation of results from the owner. If he were secured in his job, he might have dared to give more chance to the youth. But with rumors surrounding Pep, Klopp joining City forces MP sign more high profile players and ignore the youth...

 

[PragueBlue]

For what its worth, im not slagging off the club. I think what they've done is incredible. They're building an absolute machine over at the CFA. Some immensely talented kids coming through, but we've just gotta get into a habit of actually having the balls to use them. Chelsea have been winning FA Youth Cups for ages now, but they never give these kids a go so what's the point?

Perhaps we think they aren't quite ready yet and would be better served for the long term on loan or in the EDS for another year. Barcelona used to bring good quality youth players through and as we have the Spanish duo in charge, I would expect to see more youth being given a go over the next couple of seasons.

 

[twosips]

TBH our youth are good but the manager is under the pressure of the expectation of results from the owner. If he were secured in his job, he might have dared to give more chance to the youth. But with rumors surrounding Pep, Klopp joining City forces MP sign more high profile players and ignore the youth...

You're probably right and it may something to do with it, but that's a problem and one that has to be dealt with. It'll always be the case that there's expectation on managers at any top club, but that doesn't mean its impossible to bring kids through and we have to escape that mentality.