Veganism

It's not all Red meat that's bad! Wild Game is the heathiest meat you can get. The beef and pork that you buy in the shop has been force fed a diet of Shite to produce fast , economical saturated fat laden garbage. Just say No to mass produced meat product, get a gun or a stick and head to the woods and kill something healthy. Enjoy.
 
It's not all Red meat that's bad! Wild Game is the heathiest meat you can get. The beef and pork that you buy in the shop has been force fed a diet of Shite to produce fast , economical saturated fat laden garbage. Just say No to mass produced meat product, get a gun or a stick and head to the woods and kill something healthy. Enjoy.

There's not exactly an abundance of wild game in the vicinity of Manchester, and what little is available is more than likely owned by some chinless **** who spends most of his time in the home counties and employs psychopathic gamekeepers to shoot and maim anyone who even looks like they want to eat it without paying a few grand to shoot it first.
I used to go poaching when I was younger, and have a few tales to tell. Fucked if I'm doing it now I can no longer run as far or as fast.
 
There's not exactly an abundance of wild game in the vicinity of Manchester, and what little is available is more than likely owned by some chinless **** who spends most of his time in the home counties and employs psychopathic gamekeepers to shoot and maim anyone who even looks like they want to eat it without paying a few grand to shoot it first.
I used to go poaching when I was younger, and have a few tales to tell. Fucked if I'm doing it now I can no longer run as far or as fast.
Move to Cheshire, you'll be fine
 
Its amazing

If a poster claims not to eat meat because of animal suffering he's a loony preacher arsehole

but if he came on and said I dont eat beef, Im a Hindu and I respect the cow

everyone would be ok with that
That's not why he's been rounded on.

He's claiming that by not eating meat because of animal suffering it makes him a more moral human being than those who continue to eat meat despite knowing all about the 'suffering'. Everyone would be okay with his stance on not eating meat if he was more pragmatic about the reasons why people continue to do so, but instead he's using it as a reason to claim moral superiority over others. That's what's rankling everyone.
 
I don't care if you like a bacon butty in the morning, but the people who sold you that bacon don't care about you or the pig.... they just want your cash and thats the problem.

I sell software to people that I make. I don't care about you or really what the software is doing or if it's putting 1000 people out of work, I just want your money because my mortgage needs to be paid and I have done something valuable for you.

The software is what I consider to be extremely high quality because as a designer, programmer and businessman I am judged not on how much people like me but my ability to solve the problems that they have paid for me to solve. Thus if it doesn't solve the problem or more commonly does solve that specific problem but then creates 3 new ones then that is a bad transaction and those people are unlikely to give me money to solve more problems in the future.

That's not a problem, it is just the way the entire world works. A butcher is a businessman as much as the vaccum salesman, the mobile phone designer or the bricklayer. They don't care about you. They might pretend to care about you and your kids and your crap jokes for a short time to help facilitate a business relationship but the relationship at its core is based around the fair and equitable trade of services or goods for finance.

One of the many things I fail to understand about some people in the modern world, usually on the left wing politically in my subjective experience, is how irritated they are by the very idea that a solely financially based relationship is often nothing more than that. That somehow a fair trade of my money for your goods or vice versa is inherently immoral and there's needs to be added layers of complexity above that. Or that salesmen are doing a job and attempting to sell something to you is not an invasion of your privacy and often not a waste of your time.
 
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I'm not "rationalizing a shit life", in fact if anything I'm reaffirming the specialness and the greatness of humanity by their intelligence and consciousness.

Now you've used the word distress there. Flies absolutely DO feel distress, which is a different thing from pain as do many creatures you seem to have on your kill list.
And human nature is not only pretty and good, it is literally the best thing that has ever existed in the entire Universe to our knowledge. It is the foundation of every single human act that has ever taken place and considering we live in an extremely fantastic time to be alive comparative to other humans we should celebrate it as much as possible

It's funny that people can arrive at such wildly different conclusions. But I suppose we just see things differently. I think I have correctly deduced that the only meaningful thing, or valuable thing, are creatures and what they feel. Can it suffer? type-thing. If you flat out deny that the farmed animals feel pain/distress/panic/anxiety etc, then there is no problem. I agree with you in that now is probably the best time to be alive as a human (depending upon where you're born). Been accused of over-analyzing many times, but if I add it all up, the accident of life, dumb force of evolution, the pointless exercise.. etc I am left with 'shit life' - Not my life, I mean life it's self, and people have said we wouldn't continue the game if we acted on reason alone.

I just want to make the point again though.. the judgement is made automatically. It isn't me saying 'all meat-eaters are selfish in my opinion' - it is just the truth of the circumstance (if of course you accept what I am calling facts, and believe that your tastebuds are more important than an animal's well-being) I am certainly not sat here with a big smile on my face, waving my finger, and feeling like I'm on the top moral mountain or something. There is something majorly wrong with the unintelligent design of nature itself and the amount of waste it creates, all I am really saying is that as the most intelligent things in the universe, or certainly on the planet, we can accept that the game is stupid cruel and we can throw out our subjective psychology when it comes to something truly valuable.
 
I hate the fact that any conversation on being veggie/vegan always turns into a confrontational argument by both sides!

RichardDunneOwnGoal thanks for the sensible post if you've never heard of it I recommend https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study it's a difficult read but if you're truly interested then it does make you think!

I think wether you eat meat or not the one thing that I think most people would or should be against is factory farming! That's the real problem!

injecting chickens with steroids and antibiotics that you then consume yourself and feed to your family! That must concern everyone?

the inhuman way they treat these animals and even the waste management of these places pose a threat to things like clean drinking water, fishing at the levels we do now is killing the oceans infrastructure, for every 1 pound of prawns caught there's a mass amount of unwanted fish caught, killed and thrown back overboard!

I don't care if you like a bacon butty in the morning, but the people who sold you that bacon don't care about you or the pig.... they just want your cash and thats the problem.
I've never heard so much bollocks in my life, do you know any farmers or people that hunt? They mostly care more about animal welfare than any tree hugger I've ever met, huntsmen put a hell of a lot more money into animal conservation that any other demographic group on the planet, in short your talking through your arse.
 
Vegetarians/vegans like morrisey calling meat eaters are acting like tossers
meat eaters slagging people solely for being veggie/vegan are acting like tossers

I personally eat meat with most meals got mates who are vegetarian, when out we eat what we like sat together none of this bollocks of criticising each others choice, though we are all united in our appreciation of alcohol, it''s them tee totalers that are odd
 
It's funny that people can arrive at such wildly different conclusions. But I suppose we just see things differently. I think I have correctly deduced that the only meaningful thing, or valuable thing, are creatures and what they feel. Can it suffer? type-thing. If you flat out deny that the farmed animals feel pain/distress/panic/anxiety etc, then there is no problem. I agree with you in that now is probably the best time to be alive as a human (depending upon where you're born). Been accused of over-analyzing many times, but if I add it all up, the accident of life, dumb force of evolution, the pointless exercise.. etc I am left with 'shit life' - Not my life, I mean life it's self, and people have said we wouldn't continue the game if we acted on reason alone.

I just want to make the point again though.. the judgement is made automatically. It isn't me saying 'all meat-eaters are selfish in my opinion' - it is just the truth of the circumstance (if of course you accept what I am calling facts, and believe that your tastebuds are more important than an animal's well-being) I am certainly not sat here with a big smile on my face, waving my finger, and feeling like I'm on the top moral mountain or something. There is something majorly wrong with the unintelligent design of nature itself and the amount of waste it creates, all I am really saying is that as the most intelligent things in the universe, or certainly on the planet, we can accept that the game is stupid cruel and we can throw out our subjective psychology when it comes to something truly valuable.

There's a few different points to unpick there but the first to point out is that the idea of a "X leads to Y" logic chain based around something like selfishness is inherently flawed. Selfish isn't a concrete description and the word means different things to different people, what I consider selfish you might not and vice versa, therefore any "this makes you selfish and it's a fact" is flawed because the definition of selfish is too flexible. It's not a classification, you could say "if you commit murder then you're a murderer and thta's a fact" and that's fine because the word murderer is well defined and concrete unlike selfish.

The second and somewhat off topic but still important point seems to be that your idea of the Universe as serving no greater purpose has left you in a sort of existential crisis about your ultimate place and everybody's ultimate place. Perhaps as somebody who believes the same as you I can offer my own thoughts on it?

The truth is you don't matter. Not really. Every single thing that you do, good or bad, charitable or selfish, nasty or nice to one or one billion people is a speck of a speck of a speck on the history of the Universe and will be forgotten about into irrelevance. There are some for which this idea is crippling and I do think it's a stage which all people go through in their lives at one time or another. However when you come through the other side of this then you get the realisation that because you don't matter and there's no ultimate point to anything then it's a liberating idea.

There's no parent to nurture us or protect us or to tell us what we've done is wrong or pat us on the back for a job well done. There's no naughty step to be banish to for all eternity. There's just us, a bunch of lonely apes on a floating rock in a non-descript Solar System. We are both the prisoners and the guards of our own situation. The masters of both our own destiny as a collective tribe and of how we treat each other. We get to decide what's right and wrong, what's good and bad, how to treat others. I often say that I'm an atheist but that's not really a true reflection of my beliefs. I think we're all personal Gods to each other with the power to create, destroy, love and punish each other and it's how we wield this power that is the reflection not just of you personally but our species as a whole. I also think that we're capable of immense acts of kindness and miraculous acts of invention when working together.

Obviously my views on things like soldiering are well known and somewhat controversial but what greater demonstration has war given us for both the inventiveness, the beauty and the evilness of humanity? The ability for a collection of people to be organised into a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts? The amazing acts of kindness, the passion for freedom and liberty which has driven humanity since we came down from the trees, the savageness of which we're capable when we treat others as "less than human", the speed of which we can create and invent when driven by a singular purpose. For me war has always been the thing to avoid but has also reflected the special nature of humans better than any other interaction.

This period of human history is the greatest period that has ever lived and I am absolutely certain that in 1000 years it will be remembered greater than we remember the Renaissance. It is a period that worldwide humanity has decided to get its shit together. Every day people are becoming better fed, with better medical care. Every day there are more people fighting against the tyranny of dictators and demanding the voice of the populace be heard. Every day we are creating a more compassionate society and stretching our arms further out into new science, new technologies and new breakthroughs which will further spurn our development. In the last 100 years the planet has changed more than any other 100 year span in the 2 million year history of our species. With the media the way that it is, it is very easy to forget this and be caught up in the religious strife, the terrorism, the murders and rapes. But that is not an accurate reflection of the modern human society in which miracles happen every single day. I am currently sat just outside of Manchester in England writing a message using a posh version of a typewriter. This message can be instantly read by somebody in Shanghai, and it will be translated automatically to their language in such a way that they will get the drift and they can reply back in their own language to which can be translated automatically and instantly back to my language. That is a miracle. Literally, 100 years ago that is the power of a God.

Just today the world was made a better place. On a cruise ship, a baby was born at the 26 week mark weighing only one pound eight ounces, yet managed to survive because somebody built a makeshift incubator. That is an absolute miracle that never could have occurred at any other point of human history. That person is alive because of the achievements of its ancestors who also lived in the same Universe that you do. Today marks the one year anniversary of any naturally occurring cases of polio in Nigeria. A feat which has never been accomplished in the history of that country before. . Over the last 30 years alone, this is what has happened to Polio as an epidemic

_85756865_polio_maps_624_v2_1988.png


_85756867_polio_maps_624_v2_2015.png


What's 30 years on the lifespan of the Universe? Absolutely nothing. Not even a speck of a speck of a speck of a speck. Yet that's what we have accomplished in that time frame thanks to a collective effort from people all over the world.

I don't share your view of a pointless existence because I see the point in almost everything around me. Nobody builds a tower on their own, everybody stands on each others shoulders. We couldn't achieve the things that we can achieve now if we didn't do the hard work that we've done over the past 2000 years. Everything mattered because it all ultimately led us to where we are now just as everything we do now will ultimately lead us to where we are going to be in the future. We are the masters of our reality and can shape it to our collective will. Yes, the world isn't perfect and there's thousands of problems that we are still yet to solve. This to me is a motivator and not a downer. It reminds me that there's still so much work to be done by us and so much more left to achieve. But to ignore all of the achievements that we've made not just in the past 30 years but the past 100,000 years to me is reducing the complexity of existence down to an overly simplistic form. It matters because we want it to matter and that's enough. It doesn't need to be any more grandiose than that.
 
Vegetarians/vegans like morrisey calling meat eaters are acting like tossers
meat eaters slagging people solely for being veggie/vegan are acting like tossers

I personally eat meat with most meals got mates who are vegetarian, when out we eat what we like sat together none of this bollocks of criticising each others choice, though we are all united in our appreciation of alcohol, it''s them tee totalers that are odd

My sister's boyfriend was quite a moralistic veggie. until he discovered that beer is non veggie.
 
There's a few different points to unpick there but the first to point out is that the idea of a "X leads to Y" logic chain based around something like selfishness is inherently flawed. Selfish isn't a concrete description and the word means different things to different people, what I consider selfish you might not and vice versa, therefore any "this makes you selfish and it's a fact" is flawed because the definition of selfish is too flexible. It's not a classification, you could say "if you commit murder then you're a murderer and thta's a fact" and that's fine because the word murderer is well defined and concrete unlike selfish.

I see what you're saying, but I think I qualified it enough. If you acknowledge the (let's all them) 'facts' yet you still buy the meat that the animal was tortured to make available then the only word that fits is selfish? I mean it in this sense. Not that you won't share your sweets or something.

The second and somewhat off topic but still important point seems to be that your idea of the Universe as serving no greater purpose has left you in a sort of existential crisis about your ultimate place and everybody's ultimate place. Perhaps as somebody who believes the same as you I can offer my own thoughts on it?

The truth is you don't matter. Not really. Every single thing that you do, good or bad, charitable or selfish, nasty or nice to one or one billion people is a speck of a speck of a speck on the history of the Universe and will be forgotten about into irrelevance. There are some for which this idea is crippling and I do think it's a stage which all people go through in their lives at one time or another. However when you come through the other side of this then you get the realisation that because you don't matter and there's no ultimate point to anything then it's a liberating idea.

I completely disagree with all of this. And I think this type of thinking can be dangerous. The only things that matters in the universe is beings capable of sensations/emotions/pain. If we all thought like that we'd let our bigotries go out of control and peace (the thing that hopefully we all want) would be impossible.

I don't share your view of a pointless existence because I see the point in almost everything around me. Nobody builds a tower on their own, everybody stands on each others shoulders. We couldn't achieve the things that we can achieve now if we didn't do the hard work that we've done over the past 2000 years. Everything mattered because it all ultimately led us to where we are now just as everything we do now will ultimately lead us to where we are going to be in the future. We are the masters of our reality and can shape it to our collective will. Yes, the world isn't perfect and there's thousands of problems that we are still yet to solve. This to me is a motivator and not a downer. It reminds me that there's still so much work to be done by us and so much more left to achieve. But to ignore all of the achievements that we've made not just in the past 30 years but the past 100,000 years to me is reducing the complexity of existence down to an overly simplistic form. It matters because we want it to matter and that's enough. It doesn't need to be any more grandiose than that.

Well, it's a bit contradictory now from your opening paragraph. Nothing you or anyone does matters, but it isn't pointless? Maybe I was unclear. Life for life's sake, is pointless. But the fact that we can understand/empathize with ourselves and the others around us makes everything we do matter enormously, which I guess is what you mean at the end? ''It matters because we want it to matter" - I don't think want has anything to do with it. I think it matters intrinsically.

I am not sure we are talking on the same wavelength and it is offtopic from the thread. That's the problem with messages.

Apart from those points good post, and there is indeed a lot to hopeful about, but in my view the scales are tipped so one-sidedly that to even bring them into balance would be impossible.
 
I consider animals a lower form of life than us as they lack consciousness and even rudimentary intelligence. They're essentially walking plants who we prescribe human values and behaviours to because it satiates our nurturing desire, biologically programmed to release endorphins and happy thoughts into us so we don't just leave our kids in the middle of a bush somewhere. The science behind what animals we find cute and not cute, edible and inedible is mostly about how they share similar characteristics to children.

I'm absolutely a speciest. I'd wipe out every white tailed deer in the world if it cured cancer and do it without a moment's hesitation.

The biggest evolutionary benefit to an animal now is to be useful to humans. That isn't even a debate, it's a fact as anybody who has looked at global chicken and populations or the decline of the global horse population over the past 100 years will attest to. We keep them and breed them in order to satisfy our hunger. The ones that irritate us are generally wiped out on a global scale unless they serve some purpose that we have identified.

Too many humans think they're above nature and because they have developed consciousness the rules just don't apply any longer. I say that's nonsense and a look at the ecological record shows it to be ignorant nonsense. We're still under the development of evolution, we're still shaping nature to fit us and adapting to the new conditions no different from any other animal on the planet. Animals constantly and consistently uproot and wipe out populations of other animals. We're just better at it then they are.

I don't have compassion for animals because I don't have compassion for bacteria, or viruses, or plants and see them ranked along the same lines. This doesn't mean I don't love my dog or have a collection of cat skulls in my basement, it means that although I love my dog I recognise it as ultimately inferior to every human being alive by almost every metric apart from my own sentimentality borne out of what is essentially my own invention.

You consider most of us as a lower life form than you.

Back on dogs though, I think emotionally they are far more intelligent than you give them credit for.

My staffy might not be able to play metal gear solid for 70 hours in one week but he knows when I'm feeling down or ill and if that makes me happy then that's good enough for me
 
The scientific consensus is that humans developed as scavengers in terms of meat eating. Typically, we would eat a small amount of meat about once a month, e.g. the leftovers of a carcass killed by a carnivore. So yes, we are omnivorous ‘by design’ (and by that, I mean ‘design’ by evolution, for want of a better way of putting it).

The evidence suggests (and this correlates nicely with the above) that we physiologically function at our optimal level when we eat a largely vegetarian diet, with a small amount of meat occasionally.

This raises a few discussion points:

1) If we are to argue that we are meant to eat meat and that this is a good enough reason for doing so, then logic dictates that we should be eating it in the quantities described above (since this is what we are meant to do). I’m sure that not many people would argue that the health of many westerners is not what we would like it to be, and eating way too much cholesterol etc is certainly a major factor in that. So I wouldn’t argue with someone saying that we are meant or ‘designed’ to eat meat if that person was consistent and they weren’t doing it every day or even every week.

2) As our scientific knowledge has progressed sufficiently to understand what our bodies need and in what quantities, we can (if we choose to) achieve this without using animal products. I would say that for many vegans, this is the basis of their dietary choices. That is, science has progressed to the point that we don’t have to use animals any more, so vegans choose not to.

3) According to the British Heart Foundation, Coronary Heart Disease is this country’s biggest killer. And we know that CHD is largely caused by cholesterol. My dad died suddenly from a heart attack when he was very young. This is something that really made me think; I’m surprised the health issues haven’t been discussed in greater depth on this thread.

I think that a vegan making their choices based on these points would be taking a logical approach. I fully accept that many (indeed, most) will not agree, but I think it would be unfair to reject or criticise that view.

I’d also like to talk a bit about animal suffering. Damocles is correct to suggest that we can not claim to know that animals do not feel pain or suffer in the way that humans do (or in the way that humans might typically define those terms). But this certainly does not mean that the default position should be to assume that they do not and to base our actions on that assumption. For vegans, it’s enough to say that animals might feel pain and suffer in a comparable way to how humans do, and since we farm animals in their trillions, they choose not to take part on that basis.

Bear in mind that we are closely related to the animals that we tend to farm. If we were to make a ‘best guess’ at whether or not animals feel pain and suffer in a comparable way to humans, it seems logical to assume the position that they do. If we are going to act based on the opposite view, then the onus is on us to demonstrate that to be the case.

A final point about ‘preaching’. A lot of people get very defensive when other people have a differing view to them. I know a lot of meat-eaters, a lot of vegetarians and a huge number of vegans (hey, I’m a popular guy). I have to say, virtually all of the vegetarians and vegans keep their views largely to themselves and don’t make a fuss about it at all. I always find it suspicious when people say vegans are ‘preachy’ or say, ‘How can you tell when someone is a vegan? Don’t worry – they’ll tell you’ etc. In 20 years of moving in those circles, I’ve met a very small minority who even mention it. You may well know some people who are veggie or vegan, without knowing it. But this ‘preaching’ thing is a myth. Suppose you’ve met 100 vegans in your life, and one or two of them talked about it or tried to convince you, does that make it fair to label the other 98 as ‘preachy’?

On the other hand, I think when you are in the majority on an issue, it’s easy to manifest those ‘preachy’ qualities without even realising it. I wouldn’t criticise that, but I think in the interests of fairness it needs to be acknowledged. If you’re (for want of a better word) desensitised to the world of animal products (because it’s normal for you to use them) you may not realise just how much ‘preaching’ of this lifestyle goes on. Hell, it’s a daily occurrence from virtually all of my colleagues at lunch time where I work.
 
There's a few different points to unpick there but the first to point out is that the idea of a "X leads to Y" logic chain based around something like selfishness is inherently flawed. Selfish isn't a concrete description and the word means different things to different people, what I consider selfish you might not and vice versa, therefore any "this makes you selfish and it's a fact" is flawed because the definition of selfish is too flexible. It's not a classification, you could say "if you commit murder then you're a murderer and thta's a fact" and that's fine because the word murderer is well defined and concrete unlike selfish.

The second and somewhat off topic but still important point seems to be that your idea of the Universe as serving no greater purpose has left you in a sort of existential crisis about your ultimate place and everybody's ultimate place. Perhaps as somebody who believes the same as you I can offer my own thoughts on it?

The truth is you don't matter. Not really. Every single thing that you do, good or bad, charitable or selfish, nasty or nice to one or one billion people is a speck of a speck of a speck on the history of the Universe and will be forgotten about into irrelevance. There are some for which this idea is crippling and I do think it's a stage which all people go through in their lives at one time or another. However when you come through the other side of this then you get the realisation that because you don't matter and there's no ultimate point to anything then it's a liberating idea.

There's no parent to nurture us or protect us or to tell us what we've done is wrong or pat us on the back for a job well done. There's no naughty step to be banish to for all eternity. There's just us, a bunch of lonely apes on a floating rock in a non-descript Solar System. We are both the prisoners and the guards of our own situation. The masters of both our own destiny as a collective tribe and of how we treat each other. We get to decide what's right and wrong, what's good and bad, how to treat others. I often say that I'm an atheist but that's not really a true reflection of my beliefs. I think we're all personal Gods to each other with the power to create, destroy, love and punish each other and it's how we wield this power that is the reflection not just of you personally but our species as a whole. I also think that we're capable of immense acts of kindness and miraculous acts of invention when working together.

Obviously my views on things like soldiering are well known and somewhat controversial but what greater demonstration has war given us for both the inventiveness, the beauty and the evilness of humanity? The ability for a collection of people to be organised into a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts? The amazing acts of kindness, the passion for freedom and liberty which has driven humanity since we came down from the trees, the savageness of which we're capable when we treat others as "less than human", the speed of which we can create and invent when driven by a singular purpose. For me war has always been the thing to avoid but has also reflected the special nature of humans better than any other interaction.

This period of human history is the greatest period that has ever lived and I am absolutely certain that in 1000 years it will be remembered greater than we remember the Renaissance. It is a period that worldwide humanity has decided to get its shit together. Every day people are becoming better fed, with better medical care. Every day there are more people fighting against the tyranny of dictators and demanding the voice of the populace be heard. Every day we are creating a more compassionate society and stretching our arms further out into new science, new technologies and new breakthroughs which will further spurn our development. In the last 100 years the planet has changed more than any other 100 year span in the 2 million year history of our species. With the media the way that it is, it is very easy to forget this and be caught up in the religious strife, the terrorism, the murders and rapes. But that is not an accurate reflection of the modern human society in which miracles happen every single day. I am currently sat just outside of Manchester in England writing a message using a posh version of a typewriter. This message can be instantly read by somebody in Shanghai, and it will be translated automatically to their language in such a way that they will get the drift and they can reply back in their own language to which can be translated automatically and instantly back to my language. That is a miracle. Literally, 100 years ago that is the power of a God.

Just today the world was made a better place. On a cruise ship, a baby was born at the 26 week mark weighing only one pound eight ounces, yet managed to survive because somebody built a makeshift incubator. That is an absolute miracle that never could have occurred at any other point of human history. That person is alive because of the achievements of its ancestors who also lived in the same Universe that you do. Today marks the one year anniversary of any naturally occurring cases of polio in Nigeria. A feat which has never been accomplished in the history of that country before. . Over the last 30 years alone, this is what has happened to Polio as an epidemic

_85756865_polio_maps_624_v2_1988.png


_85756867_polio_maps_624_v2_2015.png


What's 30 years on the lifespan of the Universe? Absolutely nothing. Not even a speck of a speck of a speck of a speck. Yet that's what we have accomplished in that time frame thanks to a collective effort from people all over the world.

I don't share your view of a pointless existence because I see the point in almost everything around me. Nobody builds a tower on their own, everybody stands on each others shoulders. We couldn't achieve the things that we can achieve now if we didn't do the hard work that we've done over the past 2000 years. Everything mattered because it all ultimately led us to where we are now just as everything we do now will ultimately lead us to where we are going to be in the future. We are the masters of our reality and can shape it to our collective will. Yes, the world isn't perfect and there's thousands of problems that we are still yet to solve. This to me is a motivator and not a downer. It reminds me that there's still so much work to be done by us and so much more left to achieve. But to ignore all of the achievements that we've made not just in the past 30 years but the past 100,000 years to me is reducing the complexity of existence down to an overly simplistic form. It matters because we want it to matter and that's enough. It doesn't need to be any more grandiose than that.
Great great post.
 
The scientific consensus is that humans developed as scavengers in terms of meat eating. Typically, we would eat a small amount of meat about once a month, e.g. the leftovers of a carcass killed by a carnivore. So yes, we are omnivorous ‘by design’ (and by that, I mean ‘design’ by evolution, for want of a better way of putting it).

The evidence suggests (and this correlates nicely with the above) that we physiologically function at our optimal level when we eat a largely vegetarian diet, with a small amount of meat occasionally.

This raises a few discussion points:

1) If we are to argue that we are meant to eat meat and that this is a good enough reason for doing so, then logic dictates that we should be eating it in the quantities described above (since this is what we are meant to do). I’m sure that not many people would argue that the health of many westerners is not what we would like it to be, and eating way too much cholesterol etc is certainly a major factor in that. So I wouldn’t argue with someone saying that we are meant or ‘designed’ to eat meat if that person was consistent and they weren’t doing it every day or even every week.

2) As our scientific knowledge has progressed sufficiently to understand what our bodies need and in what quantities, we can (if we choose to) achieve this without using animal products. I would say that for many vegans, this is the basis of their dietary choices. That is, science has progressed to the point that we don’t have to use animals any more, so vegans choose not to.

3) According to the British Heart Foundation, Coronary Heart Disease is this country’s biggest killer. And we know that CHD is largely caused by cholesterol. My dad died suddenly from a heart attack when he was very young. This is something that really made me think; I’m surprised the health issues haven’t been discussed in greater depth on this thread.

I think that a vegan making their choices based on these points would be taking a logical approach. I fully accept that many (indeed, most) will not agree, but I think it would be unfair to reject or criticise that view.

I’d also like to talk a bit about animal suffering. Damocles is correct to suggest that we can not claim to know that animals do not feel pain or suffer in the way that humans do (or in the way that humans might typically define those terms). But this certainly does not mean that the default position should be to assume that they do not and to base our actions on that assumption. For vegans, it’s enough to say that animals might feel pain and suffer in a comparable way to how humans do, and since we farm animals in their trillions, they choose not to take part on that basis.

Bear in mind that we are closely related to the animals that we tend to farm. If we were to make a ‘best guess’ at whether or not animals feel pain and suffer in a comparable way to humans, it seems logical to assume the position that they do. If we are going to act based on the opposite view, then the onus is on us to demonstrate that to be the case.

A final point about ‘preaching’. A lot of people get very defensive when other people have a differing view to them. I know a lot of meat-eaters, a lot of vegetarians and a huge number of vegans (hey, I’m a popular guy). I have to say, virtually all of the vegetarians and vegans keep their views largely to themselves and don’t make a fuss about it at all. I always find it suspicious when people say vegans are ‘preachy’ or say, ‘How can you tell when someone is a vegan? Don’t worry – they’ll tell you’ etc. In 20 years of moving in those circles, I’ve met a very small minority who even mention it. You may well know some people who are veggie or vegan, without knowing it. But this ‘preaching’ thing is a myth. Suppose you’ve met 100 vegans in your life, and one or two of them talked about it or tried to convince you, does that make it fair to label the other 98 as ‘preachy’?

On the other hand, I think when you are in the majority on an issue, it’s easy to manifest those ‘preachy’ qualities without even realising it. I wouldn’t criticise that, but I think in the interests of fairness it needs to be acknowledged. If you’re (for want of a better word) desensitised to the world of animal products (because it’s normal for you to use them) you may not realise just how much ‘preaching’ of this lifestyle goes on. Hell, it’s a daily occurrence from virtually all of my colleagues at lunch time where I work.
I'm not entirely sure you have the weight of scientific consensus on your side at all.
 

I see what you're saying, but I think I qualified it enough. If you acknowledge the (let's all them) 'facts' yet you still buy the meat that the animal was tortured to make available then the only word that fits is selfish? I mean it in this sense. Not that you won't share your sweets or something.



I completely disagree with all of this. And I think this type of thinking can be dangerous. The only things that matters in the universe is beings capable of sensations/emotions/pain. If we all thought like that we'd let our bigotries go out of control and peace (the thing that hopefully we all want) would be impossible.



Well, it's a bit contradictory now from your opening paragraph. Nothing you or anyone does matters, but it isn't pointless? Maybe I was unclear. Life for life's sake, is pointless. But the fact that we can understand/empathize with ourselves and the others around us makes everything we do matter enormously, which I guess is what you mean at the end? ''It matters because we want it to matter" - I don't think want has anything to do with it. I think it matters intrinsically.

I am not sure we are talking on the same wavelength and it is offtopic from the thread. That's the problem with messages.

Apart from those points good post, and there is indeed a lot to hopeful about, but in my view the scales are tipped so one-sidedly that to even bring them into balance would be impossible.
Well put, you've got more time on your hands than me, I do know they don't sell Veal in waitrose, good job the games on in the pub next door:)
 
I see what you're saying, but I think I qualified it enough. If you acknowledge the (let's all them) 'facts' yet you still buy the meat that the animal was tortured to make available then the only word that fits is selfish? I mean it in this sense. Not that you won't share your sweets or something.
Tortured? What a load of bollocks.
 
You consider most of us as a lower life form than you.

I consider you a lower life form than most single celled organisms

My staffy might not be able to play metal gear solid for 70 hours in one week

Maybe he should earn a bit more so taking a week off when he wants isn't a financial hit?

Just a thought.
 

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