Discussion: Manuel Pellegrini 2015/16

[BillyShears]

Surely you can see the argument for us being tactically more defensive minded than we normal are away to the likes of Juve, Barca, Bayern etc???

Last night we didn't play Juve, Barca, or Bayern. Nor did we last weekend. You've picked out the statistical outliers, the best teams in the world, to try and make a lazy point about Pellegrini's tactics.

Notwithstanding that, just how long do you think it's feasible to hold out against a team like Bayern or Barca if you stick 11 behind the ball and pray for the best ?

Also, you should reacquaint yourself with a talk which Ferran gave in Abu Dhabi where he said "we want to play attacking football with a high defensive line because we believe it's the BEST way to win football matches." It's a philosophy which is embraced from the top down. It seems fundamentally bizarre to me that we still have supporters who are crying out for something else.

 

[Phil1]

There is no lack of midfield protection. It's a cliche dreamed up by people who prefer a one dimensional approach which revolves around being 'pragmatic' and 'solid' rather than entertaining and exciting.

There is mate. It might well be a cliche but it doesn't make it less true.
Playing a two in the middle is always going to be left open to a team who can press, especially if one of the two is Yaya.
You then rely on the rest of the players to do their respective jobs, which if they do its a great win with blistering football and goals galore.
If not, well you read the forum.. Haha!
My preference will always be "all guns blazing" so it's all good for me.

 

[Blue Elvis]

That's not what I said is it. But anyway for tricky away games, certainly in the Champs League, this would bring us more success than Manuel's current tactics. It might not make for a pretty game but it's very naive to think we can outplay everyone with free flowing attacking football, especially away form home in Europe. Surely you can see the argument for us being tactically more defensive minded than we normal are away to the likes of Juve, Barca, Bayern etc???

I agree. The choice seems clear.Apart from the final each match is a two legged affair. Free flowing football at home AND away means we get out of the group (just) and go out in the next round. Free flowing football at home BUT more defensive away , means IMHO that we reach the final. Which choice would most City fans want? Of course if we get to the final on a neutral ground the great debate will be free flowing OR more defensive and that debate will only be settled after the final whistle.
After last night maybe lady luck is smiling on us once again , after spending a few weeks away with the swamp lot.
CTID

 

[Neville Kneville]

I thought we were an absolute shambles in pretty much every respect last night, almost as bad as v CSKA last season. Picking an unfit Yaya (who he has overplayed & is fully responsible for, as with Negredo two seasons ago) was a ridiculous gamble which handed the initiative to the opposition, again allowing two paceless, disorganised central defenders to be attacked, sometimes with passes which were straight balls on the ground, through our whole midfield, followed by another straight ball, right through our back 4.

Absolute tactical suicide. No idea why he is doing this. It's like his ex wife or school headmaster told him he'd never win the cl playing this way so he has to prove them wrong or something.

People on here can pretend to know better & that it's being over critical but no manager in his right mind would have City playing like this & pretty much 100% of ex & current pros will say so if asked to analyse it.

We have a bunch of fantastic players who are basically good enough to beat anyone on their day, no matter how ridiculous the setup. That's what happened last night.

If you look at the positions taken up by our key players for most of the game by the way, Silva goes upfront next to Aguero, DeBruyne is on the same line as Sterling & the two centre misd behind.

It's a fluid system which I have no problem with if organised properly, but it's still basically his 4222 but instead of Dzeko it's Silva, who is more moblile & a midfield player, so people call it 4231. Hardly any difference. Still two in centre mid, too far forward, too often, too easy to play through.

Crazy stuff.

 

[BillyShears]

There is mate. It might well be a cliche but it doesn't make it less true.
Playing a two in the middle is always going to be left open to a team who can press, especially if one of the two is Yaya.
You then rely on the rest of the players to do their respective jobs, which if they do its a great win with blistering football and goals galore.
If not, well you read the forum.. Haha!
My preference will always be "all guns blazing" so it's all good for me.

You can play six in midfield, against a decent pressing team you'll generally have points in the game where if you lose the ball they'll be upon your back four. This is football. Instead of looking at City in isolation I do wish people would get a bit of perspective. The best way to get at Bayern, Madrid, and Barca, is also to press them quickly, try and nick the ball back in midfield, because if you do win the ball in certain areas of the pitch you can break on them.

This has been a weakness in the way we analyse Pellegrini's side since he was appointed. We get jittery whenever a side breaks on us because there's a sense that it feels too easy to get at the back 4. But that's a reality you accept when you play like a top team. We can play like an expensive Stoke, and ensure that we don't get broken on, but then we will also ensure that we won't be winning the title.

 

[BillyShears]

We have a bunch of fantastic players who are basically good enough to beat anyone on their day, no matter how ridiculous the setup. That's what happened last night.

Becoming a rather predictable way to belittle Pellegrini this and ensure the man never gets any credit for anything he does. Still, I'm sure he could care less!

 

[blueinsa]

You can play six in midfield, against a decent pressing team you'll generally have points in the game where if you lose the ball they'll be upon your back four. This is football. Instead of looking at City in isolation I do wish people would get a bit of perspective. The best way to get at Bayern, Madrid, and Barca, is also to press them quickly, try and nick the ball back in midfield, because if you do win the ball in certain areas of the pitch you can break on them.

This has been a weakness in the way we analyse Pellegrini's side since he was appointed. We get jittery whenever a side breaks on us because there's a sense that it feels too easy to get at the back 4. But that's a reality you accept when you play like a top team. We can play like an expensive Stoke, and ensure that we don't get broken on, but then we will also ensure that we won't be winning the title.

It also doesn't work for Stoke does it or all the other defensively solid and disciplined sides ;-)

Media pundit says "x" about us and a few on here repeat it till they are blue in the face for a week or so non stop.

Some things never change.

 

[Phil1]

You can play six in midfield, against a decent pressing team you'll generally have points in the game where if you lose the ball they'll be upon your back four. This is football. Instead of looking at City in isolation I do wish people would get a bit of perspective. The best way to get at Bayern, Madrid, and Barca, is also to press them quickly, try and nick the ball back in midfield, because if you do win the ball in certain areas of the pitch you can break on them.

This has been a weakness in the way we analyse Pellegrini's side since he was appointed. We get jittery whenever a side breaks on us because there's a sense that it feels too easy to get at the back 4. But that's a reality you accept when you play like a top team. We can play like an expensive Stoke, and ensure that we don't get broken on, but then we will also ensure that we won't be winning the title.

I think we're alluding to the same thing.
At times it'll be infuriating, at others sublime. The most important thing for us is getting Vinny back in. Once that happens the rest will take care of itself.

 

[bugsyblue]

Last night we didn't play Juve, Barca, or Bayern. Nor did we last weekend. You've picked out the statistical outliers, the best teams in the world, to try and make a lazy point about Pellegrini's tactics.

Notwithstanding that, just how long do you think it's feasible to hold out against a team like Bayern or Barca if you stick 11 behind the ball and pray for the best ?

Also, you should reacquaint yourself with a talk which Ferran gave in Abu Dhabi where he said "we want to play attacking football with a high defensive line because we believe it's the BEST way to win football matches." It's a philosophy which is embraced from the top down. It seems fundamentally bizarre to me that we still have supporters who are crying out for something else.

On your points:

Last night we didn't play those teams no. And we were lucky to win! Imagine if we did play those teams last night. My analysis of Manuel isn't based on one game.

I'm not talking about sticking 11 men behind the ball. You're twisting my words and you know it. Probably to avoid answering the question 'do you not think we should be more defensively minded away from home in the CL against tough opposition'?

I have watched Ferran's interview. Where have I said I don't want to play attacking football with a high defensive line? Teams CAN change tactics for the odd game you know. Ferran also states with a high defensive line you need high pressing. Now last night our pressing wasn't great and our defensive line wasn't that high which is why we got opened up on a number of occasions.

I'm not crying out for a fundamental change. I enjoy our style of play 9 times out of 10 and I much prefer us to be attacking minded than defensive. However what frustrates me about Manuel is that he seems to go in with the same tactical focus regardless of who or where we are playing.

Now I think we can all agree we would love City to win the champions league. Until we have a team of Barca's capability we won't win it without changing our tactics for the odd game. Let's see if we can because if we do I believe we have a great chance of being successful this season. However I haven't seen Manuel tweak the team in previous difficult ties away from home in the CL and that's what is frustrating.

 

[BillyShears]

I think we're alluding to the same thing.
At times it'll be infuriating, at others sublime. The most important thing for us is getting Vinny back in. Once that happens the rest will take care of itself.

I think we shouldn't have let Denayer go out on loan we should've sold Demichelis. As it stands I think we need one of Manga or Vinny back sooner rather than later because quite frankly we could play with 11 camped on the edge of our area, with MD and NO playing together we'd still ship goals. The partnership has the wrong characteristics for the league and the CL.

 

[George Hannah]

I thought we were an absolute shambles in pretty much every respect last night, almost as bad as v CSKA last season. Picking an unfit Yaya (who he has overplayed & is fully responsible for, as with Negredo two seasons ago) was a ridiculous gamble which handed the initiative to the opposition, again allowing two paceless, disorganised central defenders to be attacked, sometimes with passes which were straight balls on the ground, through our whole midfield, followed by another straight ball, right through our back 4.

Absolute tactical suicide. No idea why he is doing this. It's like his ex wife or school headmaster told him he'd never win the cl playing this way so he has to prove them wrong or something.

People on here can pretend to know better & that it's being over critical but no manager in his right mind would have City playing like this & pretty much 100% of ex & current pros will say so if asked to analyse it.

We have a bunch of fantastic players who are basically good enough to beat anyone on their day, no matter how ridiculous the setup. That's what happened last night.

If you look at the positions taken up by our key players for most of the game by the way, Silva goes upfront next to Aguero, DeBruyne is on the same line as Sterling & the two centre misd behind.

It's a fluid system which I have no problem with if organised properly, but it's still basically his 4222 but instead of Dzeko it's Silva, who is more moblile & a midfield player, so people call it 4231. Hardly any difference. Still two in centre mid, too far forward, too often, too easy to play through.

Crazy stuff.

Manuel looks and acts like he is a daze. So do some of the team.

 

[twosips]

Last night we didn't play Juve, Barca, or Bayern. Nor did we last weekend. You've picked out the statistical outliers, the best teams in the world, to try and make a lazy point about Pellegrini's tactics.

Notwithstanding that, just how long do you think it's feasible to hold out against a team like Bayern or Barca if you stick 11 behind the ball and pray for the best ?

Also, you should reacquaint yourself with a talk which Ferran gave in Abu Dhabi where he said "we want to play attacking football with a high defensive line because we believe it's the BEST way to win football matches." It's a philosophy which is embraced from the top down. It seems fundamentally bizarre to me that we still have supporters who are crying out for something else.

Most aren't crying out for something else, they're crying out for flexibility. Reactionary moments, where we use intelligence and adapt our style if necessary to see out the game. I'm fine for starting every game like that, but if we're getting played off the park and we look a mess, sort it. It's common sense and not too much to ask. Pretending Demichelis and Otamendi can play the same way as Mangala and Kompany is naive. They're totally different players so fit the game to suit them, THEN go back to the usual way when the other two are back. It's just obvious stuff. Play to each player's strengths. Also, if we're gonna do this high line stuff, can we do the other side of it too? Ya know, the pressing bit.

 

[BillyShears]

However I haven't seen Manuel tweak the team in previous difficult ties away from home in the CL and that's what is frustrating.

So you think that we have taken the same tactical approach into all four matches against Barca and Bayern?

This is what I mean about people not really being fair on the manager or in fact even bothering to actually do some real analysis.

 

[bugsyblue]

I agree. The choice seems clear.Apart from the final each match is a two legged affair. Free flowing football at home AND away means we get out of the group (just) and go out in the next round. Free flowing football at home BUT more defensive away , means IMHO that we reach the final. Which choice would most City fans want? Of course if we get to the final on a neutral ground the great debate will be free flowing OR more defensive and that debate will only be settled after the final whistle.
After last night maybe lady luck is smiling on us once again , after spending a few weeks away with the swamp lot.
CTID

Exactly! I don't understand why posters can't see this and think being more defensively minded away from home means we are suddenly going to start playing like Chelsea every game! Crazy.

 

[BillyShears]

Most aren't crying out for something else, they're crying out for flexibility. Reactionary moments, where we use intelligence and adapt our style if necessary to see out the game. I'm fine for starting every game like that, but if we're getting played off the park and we look a mess, sort it. It's common sense and not too much to ask. Pretending Demichelis and Otamendi can play the same way as Mangala and Kompany is naive. They're totally different players so fit the game to suit them, THEN go back to the usual way when the other two are back. It's just obvious stuff. Play to each player's strengths.

Didn't he make changes last night which ultimately won us the match and gave us much more 'control' ?

As I said in a post above, MD and NO can't play together IMO. Not in the league and not in the CL. In that sense you can stick a wall of Fernando, Dinho, and Toure two yards in front of the pair of them and they'll still ship goals.

 

[dancity19]

There is no lack of midfield protection. It's a cliche dreamed up by people who prefer a one dimensional approach which revolves around being 'pragmatic' and 'solid' rather than entertaining and exciting.

We don't want to go to a team, who are fundamentally weaker than us, and hope to nick a win. We are not built, managed, or owned for that. We want to play expansive, attacking football.

However, there was a real kamikaze feel about the 1st half - whilst we attacked with pace and vigour (and that front 4 is still far away from being at their best) we were also cut open with absolute ease. They strolled through our midfield at times and had a couple of 3 v 3/2 scenarios. That changed when we put fernando on, who has looked solid this season from the little amount he played. That would suggest we employed a more pragmatic/defensive/solid approach than in the 1st half. Was it Yaya's fitness that made us appear weaker in the 1st half, or is there a genuine 'yay conundrum' in Europe?

We don't want to play with 10 men behind the ball and rely on long balls up and counter attacks - however is it a coincidence we looked more solid last night with a more defensive minded midfielder on, and the same in Rome last year. I fundamentally do not want us to play defensive dour football, so I hope my comments are not misunderstood. But that midfield 2 is important to get right.

 

[George Hannah]

To be fair to Manuel before the game he did warn us about the dangers of over-motivation. He certainly doesn't give that impression as far as he is concerned either.

 

[BillyShears]

Exactly! I don't understand why posters can't see this and think being more defensively minded away from home means we are suddenly going to start playing like Chelsea every game! Crazy.

No, you're not listening. I'm all for the occasional tactical tweak against a top side in Europe. Borussia aren't that. They are an average German side. The fact we played poorly last night had little to do with the tactics and a lot to do with players playing really fucking badly. It happens.

Also please answer my question from a couple of posts up about the four ties against Bayern and Barca - you believe we've played the same tactics in all four games ?

 

[Phil1]

I think we shouldn't have let Denayer go out on loan we should've sold Demichelis. As it stands I think we need one of Manga or Vinny back sooner rather than later because quite frankly we could play with 11 camped on the edge of our area, with MD and NO playing together we'd still ship goals. The partnership has the wrong characteristics for the league and the CL.

I agree with that as well. There were quite a lot of posters on here telling everyone how much better Demichellis was than Kompany last year which I didn't agree with. He's been great, no doubts about that but the warning signs were there towards the end of last season that his best days were behind him. His lack of pace isn't a problem if he's got players alongside him to get him out of a hole. As it stands he hasn't got that luxury.
Otemendi just needs time to adapt. I think he'll learn our game soon enough and we'll reap the benefits.

 

[bugsyblue]

So you think that we have taken the same tactical approach into all four matches against Barca and Bayern?

This is what I mean about people not really being fair on the manager or in fact even bothering to actually do some real analysis.

Love how you ignored all the other points. Honestly, re Barca, it's hard to tell because we've always had a man sent off. Obviously not Pellers fault. Overall in the the majority of away games in the champs league under his management I think we have been tactically naive yes. The one away game where he did change the tactics was away to Bayern when we eventually won it! Now he was forced into that change because we were getting battered in the first 30 mins and I believe we got an injury? Might be wrong about the injury.

Do I think he's specifically changed tactics or formation to counteract a threat from a specific team, who knows. Only people close to the team will know that for sure. What I honestly believe though is that Pellers has one very good plan A that works against 95% of teams but for whatever reason he doesn't feel we need to change our setup away from home in the CL against most opposition and I think that is a mistake.