Attacks in Paris

[Gelsons Dad]

Perhaps you need to read Ric's sticky on the subject. Trolling is one user posting something that is deliberately designed to get a reaction from another. Easy to say ignore it but when you push a button that is important to a user then it's more difficult to do.

I hope that isn't the full definition of trolling!

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I hope that isn't the full definition of trolling!

Islam may be a religion where there are all sorts of differing views and interpretations but on Bluemoon Ric makes the pope look like a consensus politician. One of the questions at the interview he asks is "What is 2+2" to which the correct answer is "Whatever you say it is Ric".

 

[worsleyweb]

Perhaps you need to read Ric's sticky on the subject. Trolling is one user posting something that is deliberately designed to get a reaction from another. Easy to say ignore it but when you push a button that is important to a user then it's more difficult to do.

Well you pushed my buttons - I was bloody raging. As I said there is balance between having an opinion which differs to yours and letting people voice that opinion. There are two sides to this debate with polar opinions. As I said I don't even know what trolling is - I am just putting my views across.

 

[dronefromsector7G]

Islam may be a religion where there are all sorts of differing views and interpretations but on Bluemoon Ric makes the pope look like a consensus politician. One of the questions at the interview he asks is "What is 2+2" to which the correct answer is "Whatever you say it is Ric".

Is it true Ric asked you to jump, and instead of responding "how high', you just said yes please?

 

[KenTheLandlord]

I think a lot of people in this thread could do with watching this:

It was interesting and raised a couple of decent points but to be honest it is a well known axe grinder, grinding said axe.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

And in the meantime, two more Jews have been murdered attending Pre-Sabbath afternoon prayers in Tel-Aviv and another two, including an 18-yr old American on a gap year, on the West Bank. So no doubt we'll be singing the Israeli national anthem tomorrow as well.

Edit: the deaths in the second attack also included a Palestinian bystander (not the attacker).

 

[buzzer1]

Trolling?! What are we, 12 year old girls on twitter? If you dont like what he is saying, just ignore it. Thats what i do

Why cant people just do this^^? if you dont want to or have nothing positive to say in ANY thread, then just dont bother posting. Just shows what little bitches there are knockin about.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Why cant people just do this^^? if you dont want to or have nothing positive to say in ANY thread, then just dont bother posting. Just shows what little bitches there are knockin about.

A bit ironic given your earlier post. I should go and have a lie down for an hour if I were you mate. ;-)

 

[aguero93:20]

So no doubt we'll be singing the Israeli national anthem tomorrow as well.

Give it the UEFA treatment I say.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

I don't see how that helps your argument that the problem is with the religion itself rather than those who practise it. The speaker's entire concept is that there needs to be reform. But the religion itself isn't going to reform. It is based on a book that is 1400+ years old - they aren't going to do a revised second edition. What needs to change is the way in which people practise the religion, because the religion itself by definition cannot change. But that is precisely what the people you have been arguing with in this thread have been saying - it is a sociopathic view of the religion practised by a small minority that is responsible for atrocities, not the religion per se.

Thank you for putting up the video, however, it was interesting.

You've both misrepresented my argument, and her's.

My argument is that Islam is somewhat culpable for the violence done in its name, as are those people who practice the religion in such a way of course. My argument is that there is a link to belief via religious doctrine, and real world behaviour.

Haider's argument that there needs to be a reformation in Islam, is not because she thinks there is nothing wrong with it, that there is no link between it and the violence done in its name. That much is obvious. And it's a point I've also made in this thread.

A problem with having this discussion is that many people among the left cocoon Islam from criticism, to the point that ex Muslims like her have often found themselves isolated even by the left. By people who she thought would share her pursuit of liberal values, of secularism, of seeking to aid people like her in her community. Even People like her have faced hostility from the left for their criticisms of Islam. Many people on the left are too quick to conflate criticism of Islam with bigotry against Muslims, and always seek to shut down critical discussion of it on those terms. It's a point I've made, and it's a point she makes in her speech.

There's countless evidence of it in this very thread.

There are countless people like her who have abandoned their faith and have expressed dismay at the manner in which many on the left even excuse violence taken in the name of religious offence - but only in the name of Islam. That Islam's conservative right are often even protected by the left.

Her argument is that people are surrendering their free speech to placate those who wish to cocoon Islam from criticism or ridicule, in a manner in which no other religion is afforded in the West, and they're people who will use violence to ensure they get their wish.

To bend to such threats, is cowardice. To not address sincere arguments looking at solutions to this problem, and instead target individuals and dismiss their opinions as the musings of a bigot, allies you with the conservative right of Islam, and puts you in direct opposition to the principles of Liberalism you purport to stand for. That, is effectively her argument.

People like her face very real threats of death for their activism, and way too many people among the left isolate them further.

This is a wide discussion that needs to be had among the left, as their absence from it is only strengthening the far right, who aren't afraid to go near this topic.

Whether or not Islam can be reformed, if it'd be a good thing, if it's necessary, is one of many debates we should all be having.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

It was interesting and raised a couple of decent points but to be honest it is a well known axe grinder, grinding said axe.

Textbook. Went for her character with a completely baseless accusation.

Embarrassing.

 

[Chris in London]

My argument is that Islam is somewhat culpable for the violence done in its name, as are those people who practice the religion in such a way of course. My argument is that there is a link to belief via religious doctrine, and real world behaviour.

Well of course there is a link; nobody has suggested that the root cause of the Paris attacks was the exploitation of coffee workers in Columbia or aboriginal land rights in Australia. That much is uncontroversial. The real question is whether the Islamic faith can be regarded as culpable in any meaningful sense for acts of appalling violence committed in its name.

Haider makes an interesting point that criticism of islam itself is avoided by some on the liberal left for fear that their criticisms will be seen as criticisms of the followers of islam (who are for the most part non-white people) and therefore inherently racist, when it isn't. I get that. I don't happen to agree however that when many in this thread say 'the problem is not islam, it's those who adopt a particular view of it' they are doing so for fear of being called out as racists, though of course there may be the odd poster here or there who does. It seems to me that they are putting that point of view across because it is the point of view they hold. By the same yardstick, you would doubtless agree that there are some (whether in this thread or the wider world) whose worldview is 'Islam is bad' essentially because they ARE racist.

Personally however I simply do not see how you can regard the religion of Islam as being generally responsible for what some, but not all of its adherents do. More importantly, by sharing the blame between the religion and its followers by necessity you are (partly) exonerating the people who actually committed these atrocities: 'I had to do it, that's what God wants'. If it was so clear that God wanted bloody Jihad, why don't all practising muslims hold the same view? And if there is scope for debate between Muslims about it, culpability must lie with those who choose to follow one particular path that involves violence and murder rather than another that does not.

Put the problem another way. Various statistics have been bandied around as to what proportion of the overall muslim population is actually supportive of, or worse prepared to commit, acts of violence in support of the ISIS world view. Whether it is 0.01%, 1.5%, 13.794% or whatever it seems clear to me that a very sizeable majority of muslims do not support acts of violence as a way of promoting islam. Is it your position that they are not really proper muslims because if they were they would all be supporting Jihad?

Look at the problem from yet another angle. Christianity as I think every poster to this thread would acknowledge has had some unbelievable atrocities committed in its name. The Spanish Inquisition (I bet you didn't expect me to mention that), the ambush of the Knights Templar, the crusades and so on. However it is undoubtedly true that as you yourself have pointed out, with occasional exceptions like Waco, atrocities committed in the name of Christianity in the modern age tend to be very few and far between. Can Christianity, however, against that dark background claim credit for the fact that people don't by and large commit the sort of mass murder we saw in Paris in its name? No of course it can't - what has changed is not the religion per se, it is how people interpret and practice the religion. It seems to me that just as Christianity itself cannot be given the credit for the renaissance, no more can islam be expected to bear the blame for ISIS.

 

[Len Rum]

Give it the UEFA treatment I say.

That would bring shame on our club.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Textbook. Went for her character with a completely baseless accusation.

Embarrassing.

oh dear.
Missed the fact i said she had raised a couple of decent points and decided to try and troll.
I have seen her work before and her critique of Reza Aslan.
She has an axe, she is grinding it.
No different in principle to ex smokers going on about smokers affecting their health.

When you are up to speed let us all know then we can talk again.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Well of course there is a link; nobody has suggested that the root cause of the Paris attacks was the exploitation of coffee workers in Columbia or aboriginal land rights in Australia. That much is uncontroversial. The real question is whether the Islamic faith can be regarded as culpable in any meaningful sense for acts of appalling violence committed in its name.

Haider makes an interesting point that criticism of islam itself is avoided by some on the liberal left for fear that their criticisms will be seen as criticisms of the followers of islam (who are for the most part non-white people) and therefore inherently racist, when it isn't. I get that. I don't happen to agree however that when many in this thread say 'the problem is not islam, it's those who adopt a particular view of it' they are doing so for fear of being called out as racists, though of course there may be the odd poster here or there who does. It seems to me that they are putting that point of view across because it is the point of view they hold. By the same yardstick, you would doubtless agree that there are some (whether in this thread or the wider world) whose worldview is 'Islam is bad' essentially because they ARE racist.

Personally however I simply do not see how you can regard the religion of Islam as being generally responsible for what some, but not all of its adherents do. More importantly, by sharing the blame between the religion and its followers by necessity you are (partly) exonerating the people who actually committed these atrocities: 'I had to do it, that's what God wants'. If it was so clear that God wanted bloody Jihad, why don't all practising muslims hold the same view? And if there is scope for debate between Muslims about it, culpability must lie with those who choose to follow one particular path that involves violence and murder rather than another that does not.

Put the problem another way. Various statistics have been bandied around as to what proportion of the overall muslim population is actually supportive of, or worse prepared to commit, acts of violence in support of the ISIS world view. Whether it is 0.01%, 1.5%, 13.794% or whatever it seems clear to me that a very sizeable majority of muslims do not support acts of violence as a way of promoting islam. Is it your position that they are not really proper muslims because if they were they would all be supporting Jihad?

Look at the problem from yet another angle. Christianity as I think every poster to this thread would acknowledge has had some unbelievable atrocities committed in its name. The Spanish Inquisition (I bet you didn't expect me to mention that), the ambush of the Knights Templar, the crusades and so on. However it is undoubtedly true that as you yourself have pointed out, with occasional exceptions like Waco, atrocities committed in the name of Christianity in the modern age tend to be very few and far between. Can Christianity, however, against that dark background claim credit for the fact that people don't by and large commit the sort of mass murder we saw in Paris in its name? No of course it can't - what has changed is not the religion per se, it is how people interpret and practice the religion. It seems to me that just as Christianity itself cannot be given the credit for the renaissance, no more can islam be expected to bear the blame for ISIS.

Here are a few

1. The Knoxville Unitarian Universalist Church Shooting

Jim David Adkisson, a devout Christian and anti-abortion right-winger, walked into a Knoxville church on July 27th, 2008, and began firing a shotgun at children who were performing Annie Jr. He killed two and wounded seven, targeting “the church because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country.”

2. The Campaign of Terror Against Abortion Doctors

In 1993, Dr. Richard Gunn was shot dead by an anti-abortion protester. In 1994, Drs. John Britton and James Barrett were shot to death by Reverend Paul Jennings. In 1998, Dr. Barnett Sleipan was shot dead in his home by a Christian terrorist. In 2009, Dr. George Tiller was shot by Scott Roeder in a church. The ability for Christian right-wingers to justify cold-blooded murder in the name of their pro-life beliefs is a colossal hypocrisy worthy of a terrorist group like ISIS. According to the National Abortion Federation, there have been 17 attempted murders 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded, 100 butyric acid attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers since 1977. Terrorist groups like the Taliban and ISIS are very fond of acid attacks and chemical weapons like anthrax; apparently Christian right-wing terrorists share that same preference.

3. The 1995 Oklahoma City Bombings

Timothy McVeigh, America’s most notorious domestic terrorist, was obsessed with the Seventh-Day Adventist splinter group known as the Branch Davidians, who resisted an ATF raid on their citadel at Mount Carmel in 1993. He travelled to Waco, Texas during the Waco Siege and heavily supported the religious extremists within it. Two years later, he detonated a fertilizer bomb at the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing a hundred and sixty-eight people, including nineteen children, and wounded 648 others. This Christian specifically targeted innocent civilians and committed horrific acts of violence to make his political point heard – something people believe he should be incapable of, since he’s not a Muslim.

4. Everything The Ku Klux Klan Has Ever Done

Since its creation after the American Civil War, the Ku Klux Klan has been terrorizing Americans in the name of Protestantism and racial purity. Known for their terrifying costumes and hoods, they wrought have fear and violence against blacks, Jews, immigrants, gays, and Catholics for over a hundred of years, responsible for countless massacres, lynchings, rapes, and bombings that have killed thousands. In the modern day, it still has a membership of 5,000 to 8,000 terrorists that operate in individual chapters. Just two weeks ago, Frazier Glenn Cross, the leader of the Carolina Knights of the KKK, was sentenced to death by lethal injection for murdering a fourteen year old girl and two seniors outside the Overland Park Jewish Community Center in Kansas City. The man gave the Hitler salute during his trial and declared that “Jews are destroying the white race.” None of his victims were Jewish.

5. The Massacre At Zion Emmanuel AME Church in Charleston, S.C.

On Wednesday, June 17th of this year, a man rose from a pew in the historically black Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, SC, and opened fire with a .45 caliber pistol, killing nine worshipers, including pastor and State Senator Clementa Pickiney. The shooter has been photographed wearing patches representing the racist apartheid regimes in South Africa, had a Confederate license plate on his vehicle. All signs points to this being a hate crime- not only is it the oldest black church in the South, it was a symbol of resistance against slavery, and a survivor reported that the shooter yelled ‘I have to do it. You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.” Roof was a member of a local Lutheran church, yet somehow his baptism didn’t prevent him from gunning down innocent people in a house of worship, defiling a sacred place with hate and murder.

 

[Len Rum]

And in the meantime, two more Jews have been murdered attending Pre-Sabbath afternoon prayers in Tel-Aviv and another two, including an 18-yr old American on a gap year, on the West Bank. So no doubt we'll be singing the Israeli national anthem tomorrow as well.

Edit: the deaths in the second attack also included a Palestinian bystander (not the attacker).

Thought you were better than that PB.
Playing the Marseillaise at Premier League games is a display of solidarity between Britain and France.
We have three French players in our squad who I'm sure will appreciate it.
What is the problem?

 

[Chris in London]

Here are a few

1. The Knoxville Unitarian Universalist Church Shooting

Jim David Adkisson, a devout Christian and anti-abortion right-winger, walked into a Knoxville church on July 27th, 2008, and began firing a shotgun at children who were performing Annie Jr. He killed two and wounded seven, targeting “the church because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country.”

2. The Campaign of Terror Against Abortion Doctors

In 1993, Dr. Richard Gunn was shot dead by an anti-abortion protester. In 1994, Drs. John Britton and James Barrett were shot to death by Reverend Paul Jennings. In 1998, Dr. Barnett Sleipan was shot dead in his home by a Christian terrorist. In 2009, Dr. George Tiller was shot by Scott Roeder in a church. The ability for Christian right-wingers to justify cold-blooded murder in the name of their pro-life beliefs is a colossal hypocrisy worthy of a terrorist group like ISIS. According to the National Abortion Federation, there have been 17 attempted murders 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded, 100 butyric acid attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers since 1977. Terrorist groups like the Taliban and ISIS are very fond of acid attacks and chemical weapons like anthrax; apparently Christian right-wing terrorists share that same preference.

3. The 1995 Oklahoma City Bombings

Timothy McVeigh, America’s most notorious domestic terrorist, was obsessed with the Seventh-Day Adventist splinter group known as the Branch Davidians, who resisted an ATF raid on their citadel at Mount Carmel in 1993. He travelled to Waco, Texas during the Waco Siege and heavily supported the religious extremists within it. Two years later, he detonated a fertilizer bomb at the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing a hundred and sixty-eight people, including nineteen children, and wounded 648 others. This Christian specifically targeted innocent civilians and committed horrific acts of violence to make his political point heard – something people believe he should be incapable of, since he’s not a Muslim.

4. Everything The Ku Klux Klan Has Ever Done

Since its creation after the American Civil War, the Ku Klux Klan has been terrorizing Americans in the name of Protestantism and racial purity. Known for their terrifying costumes and hoods, they wrought have fear and violence against blacks, Jews, immigrants, gays, and Catholics for over a hundred of years, responsible for countless massacres, lynchings, rapes, and bombings that have killed thousands. In the modern day, it still has a membership of 5,000 to 8,000 terrorists that operate in individual chapters. Just two weeks ago, Frazier Glenn Cross, the leader of the Carolina Knights of the KKK, was sentenced to death by lethal injection for murdering a fourteen year old girl and two seniors outside the Overland Park Jewish Community Center in Kansas City. The man gave the Hitler salute during his trial and declared that “Jews are destroying the white race.” None of his victims were Jewish.

5. The Massacre At Zion Emmanuel AME Church in Charleston, S.C.

On Wednesday, June 17th of this year, a man rose from a pew in the historically black Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, SC, and opened fire with a .45 caliber pistol, killing nine worshipers, including pastor and State Senator Clementa Pickiney. The shooter has been photographed wearing patches representing the racist apartheid regimes in South Africa, had a Confederate license plate on his vehicle. All signs points to this being a hate crime- not only is it the oldest black church in the South, it was a symbol of resistance against slavery, and a survivor reported that the shooter yelled ‘I have to do it. You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.” Roof was a member of a local Lutheran church, yet somehow his baptism didn’t prevent him from gunning down innocent people in a house of worship, defiling a sacred place with hate and murder.

That sort of makes my point for me. You can't any more give Christianity the credit for the 100 peaceful worshippers in a church than you can blame it for the one nutter with the AK47. You can't blame the Church for the KKK any more than you can give it credit for the civil rights movement. The same is true of Islam.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Islam may be a religion where there are all sorts of differing views and interpretations but on Bluemoon Ric makes the pope look like a consensus politician. One of the questions at the interview he asks is "What is 2+2" to which the correct answer is "Whatever you say it is Ric".

And he looks like such a nice young lad! ;-)

 

[KenTheLandlord]

That sort of makes my point for me. You can't any more give Christianity the credit for the 100 peaceful worshippers in a church than you can blame it for the one nutter with the AK47. You can't blame the Church for the KKK any more than you can give it credit for the civil rights movement. The same is true of Islam.

Agreed and Anders Breivik another. A christian mason who killed 77 and injured 319.
Grand Master of the Norwegian Order of Freemasons, Ivar A. Skaar, issued an edict immediately excluding him from the fraternity based upon the acts he carried out and the values that appear to have motivated them. According to the Lodge records, Breivik took part in a total of four meetings between his initiation in February 2007 and his exclusion from the order – one each to receive the first, second and third degree, and one other meeting. Skaar stated that although Breivik was a member of the Order, his actions show that he is in no way a Mason.
A defence denied Muslims who say ISIS are not Muslims when using the same principle.

 

[bluemoonmatt]

Here are a few

1. The Knoxville Unitarian Universalist Church Shooting

Jim David Adkisson, a devout Christian and anti-abortion right-winger, walked into a Knoxville church on July 27th, 2008, and began firing a shotgun at children who were performing Annie Jr. He killed two and wounded seven, targeting “the church because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country.”

2. The Campaign of Terror Against Abortion Doctors

In 1993, Dr. Richard Gunn was shot dead by an anti-abortion protester. In 1994, Drs. John Britton and James Barrett were shot to death by Reverend Paul Jennings. In 1998, Dr. Barnett Sleipan was shot dead in his home by a Christian terrorist. In 2009, Dr. George Tiller was shot by Scott Roeder in a church. The ability for Christian right-wingers to justify cold-blooded murder in the name of their pro-life beliefs is a colossal hypocrisy worthy of a terrorist group like ISIS. According to the National Abortion Federation, there have been 17 attempted murders 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded, 100 butyric acid attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers since 1977. Terrorist groups like the Taliban and ISIS are very fond of acid attacks and chemical weapons like anthrax; apparently Christian right-wing terrorists share that same preference.

3. The 1995 Oklahoma City Bombings

Timothy McVeigh, America’s most notorious domestic terrorist, was obsessed with the Seventh-Day Adventist splinter group known as the Branch Davidians, who resisted an ATF raid on their citadel at Mount Carmel in 1993. He travelled to Waco, Texas during the Waco Siege and heavily supported the religious extremists within it. Two years later, he detonated a fertilizer bomb at the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing a hundred and sixty-eight people, including nineteen children, and wounded 648 others. This Christian specifically targeted innocent civilians and committed horrific acts of violence to make his political point heard – something people believe he should be incapable of, since he’s not a Muslim.

4. Everything The Ku Klux Klan Has Ever Done

Since its creation after the American Civil War, the Ku Klux Klan has been terrorizing Americans in the name of Protestantism and racial purity. Known for their terrifying costumes and hoods, they wrought have fear and violence against blacks, Jews, immigrants, gays, and Catholics for over a hundred of years, responsible for countless massacres, lynchings, rapes, and bombings that have killed thousands. In the modern day, it still has a membership of 5,000 to 8,000 terrorists that operate in individual chapters. Just two weeks ago, Frazier Glenn Cross, the leader of the Carolina Knights of the KKK, was sentenced to death by lethal injection for murdering a fourteen year old girl and two seniors outside the Overland Park Jewish Community Center in Kansas City. The man gave the Hitler salute during his trial and declared that “Jews are destroying the white race.” None of his victims were Jewish.

5. The Massacre At Zion Emmanuel AME Church in Charleston, S.C.

On Wednesday, June 17th of this year, a man rose from a pew in the historically black Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, SC, and opened fire with a .45 caliber pistol, killing nine worshipers, including pastor and State Senator Clementa Pickiney. The shooter has been photographed wearing patches representing the racist apartheid regimes in South Africa, had a Confederate license plate on his vehicle. All signs points to this being a hate crime- not only is it the oldest black church in the South, it was a symbol of resistance against slavery, and a survivor reported that the shooter yelled ‘I have to do it. You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.” Roof was a member of a local Lutheran church, yet somehow his baptism didn’t prevent him from gunning down innocent people in a house of worship, defiling a sacred place with hate and murder.

Youve named 5 shameful abhorrent acts there but youve had to go back over 20 years for a couple of them. This in no way lessens how disgraceful they are but... Im pretty sure youll accept i wont need to go back 5 months to trump them. If i put my mind to it, its quite probable I could provide 5 examples of equally horrific behaviour committed in the last 5 days?