No Yaya in the team...

[Marvin]

You do understand what ball recovery means?

But is he suited to that role? He maybe more suited to that role than as a winger, advanced midfielder or fullback, but that doesn't mean the team is better off overall.

I don't know what his ball recovery stats suggest. It's a meaningless comparison unless you compare different players playing the same role. If I picked 11 players at random and set them up in pellegrini's formation I'd expect the forwards to have more shots on goal than the defensive midfielder, and the defensive midfielder to have better ball recovery stats than the forward.

 

[OB1]

By not being able to defend, let me explain in a simple way what I mean and what is true.
If you watch a game, and watch off the ball..Toure is not able to see runners, because he ball watches.he cannot see or track dangerous runs, so he us not in the right places at the right times.

I don't want an argument, just watch away from the ball at the next match you attend, it will be an education.

If he isn't in the right place at the right time, how does he recover so much ball? Maybe you think that is because he is ball watching.

 

[Marvin]

If he isn't in the right place at the right time, how does he recover so much ball? Maybe you think that is because he is ball watching.

What are the stats then?

And don't you think that if he sat in front of the back 4 he is going to make a lot more tackles than if he is played elsewhere. It goes with the territory.

The facts are that given a loose ball in the middle of the park, or a player accelerating towards him he is ineffective. reading a game, and making a tackle are skills, but physical capacity is also a factor and his sprinting speed has evidently declined. You see this in his offensive and defensive game.

 

[OB1]

But is he suited to that role? He maybe more suited to that role than as a winger, advanced midfielder or fullback, but that doesn't mean the team is better off overall.

I don't know what his ball recovery stats suggest. It's a meaningless comparison unless you compare different players playing the same role. If I picked 11 players at random and set them up in pellegrini's formation I'd expect the forwards to have more shots on goal than the defensive midfielder, and the defensive midfielder to have better ball recovery stats than the forward.

Unfortunately, I am not aware of a site that publishes ball recovery stats for the whole league but I suspect that you would find that Yaya's figures compare favourably with most players, regardless of their role in a team. I do know that at Watford he made more ball recoveries than anyone else on the pitch and a West Ham, Song and Noble made 3 and 1 more respectively; whilst Delph for example, made 7 less than Yaya. Delph did exceptionally well the Saturday before though.

Anywat let's not let facts get in the way of your crusade against Yaya.

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

Stats have their place. They are performance indicators and like any peformance indicators, some are key; some less so but you always need to try and take a balanced view of such things.

Playing three in midfield, sitting back and not allowing your opponents into your box and then breaking on them can be successful and wa yesterday but it is not the only way to play, it's certainly not the only way to play, and it can be played with or without Yaya in the team but it does not mean it is time for Yaya to suddenly become a bit part player. Not one of the squad has proved that they can be the hub of our passing game in the way that Yaya is and that remains a problem, given that we are, and may increasingly be, a possession based team.

I think what it is showing is that rather than yaya not being good enough to start, that the rest of the squad are good enough to start games on a regular basis and do the business. It is promising for the rest of the season and Pellegrini is managing him and the squad better than he has done all season.

It could also be argued that we have been better with Clichy in the side rather than Kolorov and anyone rather than Mangala but I don't see anyone suggesting this.

 

[Barry Conlons wig]

I think why Yaya gets so much criticism, is that we all know what he is capable of.
This season he has been far from the player we have known and come to love.
We forget he is human and age is catching up with his legs. He has a massive frame,
he has to carry every game. I think we'll see him not starting as much or going off
earlier. But one thing i'm sure of, is he will play a MAJOR part in some important wins
and we should not brush him aside too easy.

I don't think anyone forgets that age is catching up with him, I think he did, prior to the blue dippers game, Its time now to use him sparingly, and in an ambassadorial role, he is no longer the player we loved, lets face it he has been immense, but the key word is BEEN and for all his world class play on the pitch his behaviour off it has been disgusting in not putting his agent in his place.

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

What are the stats then?

And don't you think that if he sat in front of the back 4 he is going to make a lot more tackles than if he is played elsewhere. It goes with the territory.

The facts are that given a loose ball in the middle of the park, or a player accelerating towards him he is ineffective. reading a game, and making a tackle are skills, but physical capacity is also a factor and his sprinting speed has evidently declined. You see this in his offensive and defensive game.

You views are difficult to take argue with as you have had it in for him all season just like you did Kompany last season who funnily enough you now can't wait to get back.

Of course he has declined but from a level that was far superior to anything else that was being seen in the midfield of a premier league side.

 

[Dribble]

But is he suited to that role? He maybe more suited to that role than as a winger, advanced midfielder or fullback, but that doesn't mean the team is better off overall.

I don't know what his ball recovery stats suggest. It's a meaningless comparison unless you compare different players playing the same role. If I picked 11 players at random and set them up in pellegrini's formation I'd expect the forwards to have more shots on goal than the defensive midfielder, and the defensive midfielder to have better ball recovery stats than the forward.

Agreed, but has anyone considered this. Manuel said that if you look at Yaya's stats and the amount of mileage he covers in every game, it stacks up against anyone at the club, but there's one major thing those stats don't cover which is dynamism.

There is a world of difference between someone running 10km in a straight rhythmic line as opposed to sprinting for 10 metres sliding in to tackle a player getting up whilst shrugging off that player and sprinting 20m forward and setting up an attack time and time again. Fernandinho can do it and Delph is showing signs he can too, but Yaya is big 32 year old brute of a unit and it just isn't his style and he's not capable of continuously playing in this energy sapping way. Anyone who has done circuit training will attest to the difference.

Our coaching staff must be aware of this, so why is Yaya continuously left exposed in a midfield two time after time again when everyone can see it's not his game. At this time of his career, Pirlo was managed and became the essential pivot for Juve to win title after title and to reach the CL final, to me this is where the Yaya problem lies. Pirlo dictated the play an was surrounded with more dynamic legs around him to do his graft and it worked. Its worked for us and Yaya before, all we have to do is look at Sevilla away.

 

[hilts]

I've said it before if you play yaya you put players around him with the legs to nullify his negatives, juve did it with Pirlo, yaya will still offer plenty this season. I think playing him in a 4 2 3 1 alongside dinho restricts dinho too much and I wouldn't play him as a number 10 either as he isn't as effective there. 4 1 4 1 seems the better balance with a dedicated DM behind yaya and dinho

 

[hilts]

Agreed, but has anyone considered this. Manuel said that if you look at Yaya's stats and the amount of mileage he covers in every game, it stacks up against anyone at the club, but there's one major thing those stats don't cover which is dynamism.

There is a world of difference between someone running 10km in a straight rhythmic line as opposed to sprinting for 10 metres sliding in to tackle a player getting up whilst shrugging off that player and sprinting 20m forward and setting up an attack time and time again. Fernandinho can do it and Delph is showing signs he can too, but Yaya is big 32 year old brute of a unit and it just isn't his style and he's not capable of continuously playing in this energy sapping way. Anyone who has done circuit training will attest to the difference.

Our coaching staff must be aware of this, so why is Yaya continuously left exposed in a midfield two time after time again when everyone can see it's not his game. At this time of his career, Pirlo was managed and became the essential pivot for Juve to win title after title and to reach the CL final, to me this is where the Yaya problem lies. Pirlo dictated the play an was surrounded with more dynamic legs around him to do his graft and it worked. Its worked for us and Yaya before, all we have to do is look at Sevilla away.

You beat me to it(must type quicker)

 

[nellyonthewing]

We cannot afford sentimentality if we also want success. Watching Yaya reminds me of a David Attenborough wildlife programme where the old bull gets brought down by a pack of hyenas. Magnificent but tragic at the same time.

 

[Jimbob]

Why do people automatically feel the need to come in to a thread that's discussing Yaya and claim anybody that isn't 100% positive about him is slagging him off? The op hasn't slagged him off he's raised a valid point and one that is becoming increasingly apparent the more games we play without Yaya.

Yaya changes our entire style, for certain games it may be beneficial to play that way but the main complaints when we fail to win have been there's a lack of tempo, movement and urgency on the ball and a lack of mobility or trackers in midfield off the ball. These are all strongly linked to Yaya. I'm not saying it's entirely his fault but seeing as the team is pretty much built around him when he plays it's fair to say he's at the heart of it.

With the players we've got, i think we're fair more suited to a quick tempo, pressing and countering game than a more methodical possession based game that involves us trying to break down walls of 10 players just for the opportunity of a shot. You can't take too much from yesterdays game as Villa clearly weren't arsed in the slightest but every time we've played without yaya we've looked a much better side. His role should now be primarily on the bench and to come on for the last 30 minutes to get on the ball and dictate the play either to control the game when winning and see it out or to look for a killer pass or one of his trademark goals if we're in need of a goal.

I don't think pellegrini is willing to do that though.

Cheers for that, as I say, it wasn't a slag Yaya off thread, just that I preferred this different style we have adopted in the last couple of games without him in the team. He's been amazing for us and one of my favourite players but I feel as a team we seem to set up better without him these days.

 

[Dribble]

You beat me to it(must type quicker)

You must do better mate! :-)

 

[Esteban de la Sexface]

I think what it is showing is that rather than yaya not being good enough to start, that the rest of the squad are good enough to start games on a regular basis and do the business. It is promising for the rest of the season and Pellegrini is managing him and the squad better than he has done all season.

It could also be argued that we have been better with Clichy in the side rather than Kolorov and anyone rather than Mangala but I don't see anyone suggesting this.

Mangala actually has the best pairing stats, with Kompany, and Ottamendi.

It is Demichelis whose stats are shocking. Anyone he plays with, he brings their average down

When we had Vinny and Mangala together we haven't conceded a single goal in the Premier League

 

[Marvin]

Unfortunately, I am not awre of a sight that publishes ball recovery stats for the whole league but I suspect that you would find that Yaya's figures compare favourably with most players, regardless of their role in a team. I do know that at Watford he made more ball recoveries than anyone else on the pitch and a West Ham, Song and Noble made 3 and 1 more respectively; whilst Delph for example, made 7 less than Yaya. Delph did exceptionally well the Saturday before though.

Anywat let's not let facts get in the way of your crusade against Yaya.

That's poor OB1. I was responding to your points.

 

[blue ranger]

Then don't make comments like Yaya cannot defend. FFS just go back to the Leicester away game and check the stats or watch a recording of the game. It is absolute flaming nonsense to say that Yaya cannot defend. There are some things he is less good at defensively and he is not a shuttle run kind of player but he is far from useless at defending when he really needs to do it. And you will probably find that he leads or is close to leading the team in ball recovery stats.

Think you are wrong. From a defending perspective Yaya is a liability which has been exposed a number of times this season. But his quality on the ball is second to none and his pass completion rates would be right up there with the best in the world. Without Yaya toure we wouldn't have 2 Championships and 2 Cups in our trophy room.

Onto yesterday I don't believe any lack of possession was down to Yaya not playing. Watching the game it appeared to me City sat deeper than usual and counter attacked at speed which was fascinating to watch.

Regarding Yaya? I think Pogba would be the ideal replacement in the summer but Yaya still has a huge part to play until the end of the season. But for me not in a midfield 2 against the better teams.

It's all about opinions though

 

[hilts]

Think you are wrong. From a defending perspective Yaya is a liability which has been exposed a number of times this season. But his quality on the ball is second to none and his pass completion rates would be right up there with the best in the world. Without Yaya toure we wouldn't have 2 Championships and 2 Cups in our trophy room.

Onto yesterday I don't believe any lack of possession was down to Yaya not playing. Watching the game it appeared to me City sat deeper than usual and counter attacked at speed which was fascinating to watch.

Regarding Yaya? I think Pogba would be the ideal replacement in the summer but Yaya still has a huge part to play until the end of the season. But for me not in a midfield 2 against the better teams.

It's all about opinions though

I think pogba is bound for Spain personally if pep can alter this I'm not sure

 

[ninjamonkey]

Cheers for that, as I say, it wasn't a slag Yaya off thread, just that I preferred this different style we have adopted in the last couple of games without him in the team. He's been amazing for us and one of my favourite players but I feel as a team we seem to set up better without him these days.

I think the majority of people that go to the games would agree with you mate. That's not a "his opinions are more valid because he goes to the match" jibe before anyone starts, it's just very easy to see Yaya's deficiencies live as they are mainly without the ball and it's not something as easily picked up on on the tv. Above anything else right now, i think the central midfield needs to be solid and energetic to allow for our attackers to play to their best. Sadly those are things Yaya doesn't give us, or at the very least, there's other players in the team that do it better than him.

In my eyes Fernando, who has been superb all season automatically should start for most away games and a few of the trickier home games with a choice of Dinho/delph or both partnering him, and at home it would predominantly be Dinho and Delph with Yaya replacing one midway through the second half

 

[yankcitizen76]

I know Yaya is getting older but he seems to have a lost a couple of steps at least going back. Sitting him is probably a good thing, but for all I know he could just be indifferent. He's talented enough to get away with it.

 

[OB1]

That's poor OB1. I was responding to your points.

I know, bloody terrible spelling but I have fixed it on the original.