EU referendum

[BimboBob]

I just cannot see a compelling argument to leave. We know what the status quo looks like and by staying in we can influence European legislation and attitudes going forwards.

The outs paint broad brush strokes about benefits from leaving but cannot define in detail what they are and some of their allegations are just plain wrong. For example - we are ruled by Europe and all our laws come from Brussels. There are 180 bills tabled so far for this parliament - that doesn't look like a country who just accepts laws from abroad.

I have heard we pay anything from £50m to £56m per day to the EU. Yes we would stop paying that but none of the outers say how that saved money would be spent. I doubt very much anybody of my "class" will see any of that money - no promises to use it to abolish NI for example. They talk about freedom to trade with the world - that just isn't so simple - there will be years of negotiations around the world with various countries and trading blocs to secure markets beyond the initial promise of a trade agreement. And when it comes to Europe forget what the current leaders say or promise in a few years time if it suits the then German chancellor or French President to fuck us over on trade they will.

It seems to me - mostly thanks to a right wing bias in the press the whole debate will revolve around immigration. Its about way way more than that and the irony will be that its likely leaving will make things worse If we aren't in the EU the French will put the entire population of the Jungle on trains and let them go set up shop on our South Coast - we won't have any fences any cops any border guards on French soil to try and stop it - why? Because we voted to come out of the EU.

Fuck me, you've been brainwashed.


French putting them all on trains...yes, come in...

 

[bluethrunthru]

Fuck me, you've been brainwashed.


French putting them all on trains...yes, come in...

Not really - would the French have our best interests at heart? Would they prefer to be rid of the Jungle? Would they allow us to erect fences and have UK law enforcement officers on their soil to keep the migrants on their soil?

 

[trotsky]

In? When the fuck did we vote to be in? We voted for a common market - a means of easy trade - the rest has slowly been put upon us. Why should European law be able to trump laws that are part of our way of life.
We are not European in anything other than geography.
We should be an individual country with open trading agreements. We remain part of NATO, so there are no security issues to influence our decision.
Those who want to remain part of this farce should come out and say that they don't want the pound and defer all major decisions of law to Brussels . That's where we'll end up if we give Europe the green light.
I can see no advantages to shackle ourselves to a failing ideology.
OUT

 

[EalingBlue2]

pay back on the UK?

There are a lot of countries in for example the commonwealth who were deserted by the UK in 73, or big political powers in history treated badly or patronised by the UK (China, much of SE Asia , Hispanic world) who would love the chance to laud over the UK in a trade deal as I suspect would a scorned EU and who would use it to put the boot in. With no natural resources or vital export resources the negotiating position for the UK won't be strong.

I think though the biggest challenge right or wrong is that the new immigration the uk will require to keep economic growth if it doesn't come from Europe will come from even more foreign places and that will in the long run cause a lot of upset for that portion of the no campaign for which immigration is an issue.

 

[EalingBlue2]

In? When the fuck did we vote to be in? We voted for a common market - a means of easy trade - the rest has slowly been put upon us. Why should European law be able to trump laws that are part of our way of life.
We are not European in anything other than geography.
We should be an individual country with open trading agreements. We remain part of NATO, so there are no security issues to influence our decision.
Those who want to remain part of this farce should come out and say that they don't want the pound and defer all major decisions of law to Brussels . That's where we'll end up if we give Europe the green light.
I can see no advantages to shackle ourselves to a failing ideology.
OUT

Britain on most measures of relative power and wealth has been in decline for over a century. What is the failed ideology?

 

[EalingBlue2]

Not really - would the French have our best interests at heart? Would they prefer to be rid of the Jungle? Would they allow us to erect fences and have UK law enforcement officers on their soil to keep the migrants on their soil?

No the French wouldn't have our best interests at heart but most people on the UK don't have their neighbours best interests at heart. The Home Counties certainly don't have the best interests of the north at heart etc. It is daft to think that interests are determined by nations, they aren't they are by individuals and there will be socialists in France whose interests are far more closely aligned with the poor of Britain than Tarquin in Surrey and equally those in marine le pens policies that would align far more closely with UKIP than a socialist from jarrow.

It is frankly ridiculous to support the out campaign because of a belief that the UK has interests , people have interests and those interests will differ across the UK just as they do in Europe.

I have yet to hear a coherent idea from a single supporter of either side of what they believe the future of Britain should be, how the fiscal and demographic challenges can be met and what elements of this goal are best served by being in or out of Europe.

Most people are just anti in or anti out, they don't understand what the goal is or really why they are anti. It is after all the way of politics today.

But trying to blame someone else for everything is just tea party politics , equally trying to paint an Armageddon and cause panic is the politics of tyranny .

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

In, without a shadow of a doubt.

Those urging an exit seem to have hugely unrealistic expectations as to what it will deliver for them and this country within the contemporary world. The EU's form, and more especially its substance, is reflective of the modern, interconnected planet we all now live on, and leaving the EU will not alter that wider landscape in the slightest. Britain will not be able to function in a vacuum, as some seem to be expecting.

People talking about what we voted for in 1973 should perhaps reflect upon how much everything has changed since then. For the EU not to have responded to those profound changes would have been absurd. Think about the City team, ownership and support in 1973 compared with today - and then consider the rules and framework that govern those things remaining the same. Only a fool would expect that to be the case.

Our exit will provide no panacea to mass immigration, 'red tape', or economic sovereignty. To expect any of those issues to be mitigated in any meaningful way by leaving the EU is to fail to appreciate how the modern world operates - and will continue to. Human progress, for better or worse, cannot be reversed, but it can be steered more safely if the boat you are in is big enough.

The EU is far from perfect, but that is true of any large institution. Those harbouring expectations of an exit enhancing their lives in the various ways they anticipate are going to be hugely disappointed imo.

There is no magic wand to what ails you.

 

[EalingBlue2]

In, without a shadow of a doubt.

Those urging an exit seem to have hugely unrealistic expectations as to what it will deliver for them and this country within the contemporary world. The EU's form, and more especially its substance, is reflective of the modern, interconnected planet we all now live on, and leaving the EU will not alter that wider landscape in the slightest. Britain will not be able to function in a vacuum, as some seem to be expecting.

People talking about what we voted for in 1973 should perhaps reflect upon how much everything has changed since then. For the EU not to have responded to those profound changes would have been absurd. Think about the City team, ownership and support in 1973 compared with today - and then consider the rules and framework that govern those things remaining the same. Only a fool would expect that to be the case.

Our exit will provide no panacea to mass immigration, 'red tape', or economic sovereignty. To expect any of those issues to be mitigated in any meaningful way by leaving the EU is to fail to appreciate how the modern world operates - and will continue to. Human progress, for better or worse, cannot be reversed, but it can be steered more safely if the boat you are in is big enough.

The EU is far from perfect, but that is true of any large institution. Those harbouring expectations of an exit enhancing their lives in the various ways they anticipate are going to be hugely disappointed imo.

There is no magic wand to what ails you.

Tend to agree with all of that and I fear that the backlash against what will happen when Britain leaves (if it does) and nothing improves will be quite extreme. The EU has been a convenient tool to blame for everything for 2 decades and when if it is no longer to be blamed then some home truths will really have to be taken on board. I just fear that the rump on the right who have driven this since the late 80's will just look for someone else to blame, the Scots, the Welsh, the North etc until there is no one left to blame.

Who will be responsible for the fascism of laws, or the economic decline or immigration when it isn't Europe? Because none will change!

I see the same politics I see in Ted Cruz (taking out the religion) this idea we should all be responsible for ourselves and we are responsible followed by a complete abdication of any responsibility for anything and a dramatic lesson in blame gaming.

But then again the in campaign is in general pretty incoherent lacking in principle, confidence, positivity or anything it should be standing for.

It has always happened throughout history some people look to the world, look to the moon and look to the future and others think you can put change back in a box and somehow go back to a better mythical world that once was.

 

[whp.blue]

If I was British I'd vote to leave. I hope Ireland ties in with Britain some time in the future so we too can determine our own future.

The past 10 years have shown that the EU have no regard for people. Our multiple referendums for example. And the past 3 years have shown that it is not a united group. All they care about is maintaining the image of a superpower while they hope that all the challenges and problems just go away.

You need leadership to make significant advances. The EU has no real leaders (even if the Germans are at the wheel) and they smother any leadership within the member countries. Look again at Ireland.

Our country is still a shameful mess despite the economic growth. The direction from Germany and the ECB was inhumane. Shower of counts!

Escape and trust in yourselves. I have no doubt that Britain will be stronger for it.

why would we want to align ourselves with a basket case of an economy like the irish? I can't see a single benefit for us

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

Most of those favouring staying in will be just scaredycats, frightened of change or the unknown. This isn't an argument for me. I'm undecided, though. Haven't seen anything from anybody to convince me either way.

If the Inners do go down the scaremongering route, I'll vote out.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Most of those favouring staying in will be just scaredycats, frightened of change or the unknown. This isn't an argument for me. I'm undecided, though. Haven't seen anything from anybody to convince me either way.

If the Inners do go down the scaremongering route, I'll vote out.

That's not true, in life seeking change can just as often be cowardice and running away as making change. Running away or breaking up because things get hard is not the way to show courage. Both sides are scaremongering and honestly scaremongering like the Bill Cash, Theresa Gorman, nigel farage is as scaremongery as you can get.

I think the whole basis of the no campaign is based on fear, fear of the future , fearnofnthe different, fear of change, etc etc, but it's fair to say much of the in campaign is just fear fear fear too.

 

[CityStu]

really? Were it to go tits up we would be a different proposition - why would they want us back if we were no longer the 5th biggest economy? Would they want the say 25th? If Romania and Turkey are such basket cases then why would the EU burden themselves with another crap economy if it went tits up for us - if we haven't voted in a generation then believe me its a generation at least before the EU would want us back in.
If we vote to leave it will stir nationalist parties up in other EU countries - they won't forgive us quickly for upsetting the delicate balance they have all striven to establish. We leave and the ticket is one way.

Because the EU aren't concerned in the slightest with the economies of their member countries. Their main goal is control over them, be that EU government, EU laws, even an EU army.

If things were really that bad, they'd accept us back if we surrendered that control back to them.

Being part of the biggest trading bloc attracting investment, Global company's are based here because we're apart of it.

Would these global companies move if we weren't a part of it? HSBC were considering moving but announced they'd be staying this week.

Being part of the EU means we have say in EU laws mainly for business, leaving would mean we have no say. -

It would mean we have total say on our laws for business though.

More than 50% of our exports go to EU countries, and our membership allows us to have a say over how trading rules are drawn up.

We would have a say in any trade agreement after we leave and we import more than we export, so it is far from the EU's best interest to rip us off. Others have given the BMW and Mercedes point - do you think their heads are going to be happy with things if the UK doesn't buy their cars any more because Japan has offered a much more enticing trade agreement?

It has been estimated that UK trade with some countries in Europe could have increased by as much as 50% as a result of EU membership

I'd like to see some actual figures for that, whether they are meaningful numbers (going from 2 to 3 isn't nearly as impressive as 2m to 3m) and in which direction that trade is.

Freedom to work In other EU member states

UK nationals would still be able to work in the EU on a VISA basis.

The European Arrest Warrant cuts out the need for long and complicated extradition procedures and allows criminals to be brought to justice across the EU

That's a fair point. Would be interested to know whether Norway and Switzerland are part of that.

The EU is the world's biggest market and plays a big role in world trade, climate change issues, development projects and more.

The UK is the world's 5th largest economy and could play a big role in world trade, climate change bla bla bla...

There aren't any parties that the EU gets invited to that the UK wouldn't.

It has the clout to take on multinationals such as Google and Microsoft. At the moment Britain plays a key role in the EU, and leaving would see us forgo that.

What have the EU taken on with those companies? And I disagree with us playing a key role - we play a 1/28 role.

Stripped of influence in Brussels, Berlin and Paris, Britain would find itself increasingly ignored by Washington and sidelined on big transnational issues such as the environment, security and trade.

Why and how do you know?

America and other allies want Britain to remain in the EU. The UK risks becoming a maverick, isolated state if it leaves.

America wants what suits America, not necessarily what suits the UK. The UK is their closest ally in Europe do having that mouthpiece in the EU is beneficial for them.

British families enjoy lower mobile phone roaming charges, lower credit card fees, cheaper flights and proper compensation when flights are delayed or cancelled. These sorts of benefits could not be achieved by Britain alone.

Why not? Particularly the flight compensation one. And are you really going to base your decision on the 2 weeks a year you're in Europe?

The EU has helped secure peace among previously warring western European nations. It helped to consolidate democracy in Spain, Portugal, Greece and former Soviet bloc countries and helped preserve peace in the Balkans since the end of the Balkans War. With the UN it now plays a leading role in conflict prevention, peacekeeping and democracy building.

That's NATO's job.

Equal pay for men and women is enshrined in EU law, as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation. This benefits Britain and British people who live in other EU countries.

These could all be enshrined in UK law and would still apply to UK citizens in EU countries - they don't not apply the law to migrants.

The UK is the second largest beneficiary of EU research funds, and the British Government expects future EU research funding to constitute a vital source of income for our world-leading universities and companies.

We are a net contributor so we could put all that the EU does into research funds, and then some.

 

[SWP's back]

Is it possible to change our votes in the future?

 

[blueinsa]

Out. No more wasted money on a vanity project for a few unelected political elite.

Britain will still do business, the banks won't leave and our borders will be safe and the money saved can be spent on our own.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

That's not true, in life seeking change can just as often be cowardice and running away as making change. Running away or breaking up because things get hard is not the way to show courage. Both sides are scaremongering and honestly scaremongering like the Bill Cash, Theresa Gorman, nigel farage is as scaremongery as you can get.

I think the whole basis of the no campaign is based on fear, fear of the future , fearnofnthe different, fear of change, etc etc, but it's fair to say much of the in campaign is just fear fear fear too.

Spot on regarding the scaremongering.

Just heard Farrage on BBC1 claiming the EU is responsible for the migrant crisis that has led to ISIS coming to Europe. What a load of bollox!

 

[blueinsa]

Spot on regarding the scaremongering.

Just heard Farrage on BBC1 claiming the EU is responsible for the migrant crisis that has led to ISIS coming to Europe. What a load of bollox!

The open borders have been a convenient excuse for most as they push them on through to the next country though so he is right up to a point.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

The open borders have been a convenient excuse for most as they push them on through to the next country though so he is right up to a point.

Maybe so but our bombing of places like Libya have been bigger factors in the migrant crisis!

Also, why don't Farrage, Gove and co concentrate on tackling the UKs problems as being a breeding ground for international terrorists. We have enough of there here already!

 

[blueinsa]

Maybe so but our bombing of places like Libya have been bigger factors in the migrant crisis!

Also, why don't Farrage, Gove and co concentrate on tackling the UKs problems as being a breeding ground for international terrorists. We have enough of there here already!

On the phone so difficult to reply right now. Completely agree with both points you make above and I will dive into the thread later in more depth.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Freedom of movement is an EEA rule, so leaving the EU will mean we still have to accept freedom of movement.
Unless we leave the EEA.
There is no talk of that as far as I know.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Freedom of movement is an EEA rule, so leaving the EU will mean we still have to accept freedom of movement.
Unless we leave the EEA.
There is no talk of that as far as I know.

If we remain in the EEA we also won't have that much freedom to have our own business laws or redefine our trade links.