EU referendum

[west didsblue]

He is busy on another thread praising the Austrians for the fact they are about to vote in a neo facist

I thought he'd be on a different thread expressing his lack of sympathy and utter contempt for the poster who got caught jumping a red light.

 

[BigJoe#1]

We elect MPs we don't actually elect PMs or cabinets or any of the actual roles. They are chosen by the elected MPs which is not so different to Europe where the non elected officials or the commissioners are chosen by elected governments. Most is driven by the councils or minister (all elected) MEPs are also elected. So there is a lot of exaggeration . In reality the commission don't actually approve legislation they just put it together and are the source of proposing legislation (often on request from EP or EC) it has to have approval from the council and sometimes parliament which are elected. This is not so different to domestically when it is usually civil servants not parliamentarians who draft legislation .
Democracy is no doubt the best system available but it has become short term and is becoming increasingly damaging and dysfunctional in most of the west. That said I would rather live in a country with a horizon of 2 weeks than the alternatives but I don't subscribe to the hypothesis that you make that the EU is in democratic in my view it is as democratic as the member nations no more no less

You're so misguided it's untrue! You need, I think, to come and live and work in the UK for a while. It's okay saying.... Oh I was back there for four weeks or I talk to family often. You need to experience and feel what the people of the U.K. are experiencing and feeling - granted not all of them, indeed I'm probably not as impoverished as many, but living here seeing the suffering and then look at people who don't care it kind of sends a message about social responsibility to me. Still whilst you're enjoying your life on the other side of the planet, your views are always welcomed though by many they are not taken too seriously.

You come across a bit like the nosey neighbour looking over the fence forever telling someone else what todo, whilst you have people doing stuff for you!

 

[TonyM]

That's what global economy has become - agents who sit in the middle skimming off the top. London and investment banks and clever investors they are all mainly skimming off the top of our pensions schemes from here and round the world.

Agents and consultants that's what business and the western world economy is built on. Nobody makes stuff anymore....

Maybe I didn't convey this properly but the products are still manufactured/assembled here. Which makes it more sad when you know the guys on the line are paid minimum wage and let go before they reach a year so as to not trigger certain rights. Times past these positions were held by people expecting a bright future. Now it's the hopeless and shorttermism.

 

[Metal Biker]

We elect MPs we don't actually elect PMs or cabinets or any of the actual roles. They are chosen by the elected MPs which is not so different to Europe where the non elected officials or the commissioners are chosen by elected governments.

Except the non elected EU Commission is the governing body that creates the laws that all EU members states must follow. The EU Parliament just rubber stamps whatever laws they put forward. They don't represent the citizens of the EU,they represent the EU itself and have no interest in the affairs of any singular member state, they are there solely to promote the EU. The EU Parliament/Commission is like our own Commons/Lords but in reverse. If our system was based on us electing MP's who then selected Lords without consultation with the people who elected them, who then made our laws that only sought to benefit and strengthen the authority of the Monarchy, everyone would rightly be up in arms.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

You're so misguided it's untrue! You need, I think, to come and live and work in the UK for a while. It's okay saying.... Oh I was back there for four weeks or I talk to family often. You need to experience and feel what the people of the U.K. are experiencing and feeling - granted not all of them, indeed I'm probably not as impoverished as many, but living here seeing the suffering and then look at people who don't care it kind of sends a message about social responsibility to me. Still whilst you're enjoying your life on the other side of the planet, your views are always welcomed though by many they are not taken too seriously.

You come across a bit like the nosey neighbour looking over the fence forever telling someone else what todo, whilst you have people doing stuff for you!

Yes he is that Harry Enfield character.

Oh you don't want to do it like that you want to do it like this.....

 

[M18CTID]

You're so misguided it's untrue! You need, I think, to come and live and work in the UK for a while. It's okay saying.... Oh I was back there for four weeks or I talk to family often. You need to experience and feel what the people of the U.K. are experiencing and feeling - granted not all of them, indeed I'm probably not as impoverished as many, but living here seeing the suffering and then look at people who don't care it kind of sends a message about social responsibility to me. Still whilst you're enjoying your life on the other side of the planet, your views are always welcomed though by many they are not taken too seriously.

You come across a bit like the nosey neighbour looking over the fence forever telling someone else what todo, whilst you have people doing stuff for you!

Over to you Ealing!

 

[M18CTID]

Got my polling card through the other day. Also got a flyer through about the referendum. Part of the blurb said that it was important to listen to independent expert opinions and went on to list about half a dozen of those opinions. Seems fair enough on the face of it, only every single independent expert opinion just so happened to state that it would be better to stay in! I thought "that's odd" only to see the small print at the bottom of the flyer stating it was from the Staying In campaign. Sly move that and it pushes me ever closer to a No vote!

 

[EalingBlue2]

You're so misguided it's untrue! You need, I think, to come and live and work in the UK for a while. It's okay saying.... Oh I was back there for four weeks or I talk to family often. You need to experience and feel what the people of the U.K. are experiencing and feeling - granted not all of them, indeed I'm probably not as impoverished as many, but living here seeing the suffering and then look at people who don't care it kind of sends a message about social responsibility to me. Still whilst you're enjoying your life on the other side of the planet, your views are always welcomed though by many they are not taken too seriously.

You come across a bit like the nosey neighbour looking over the fence forever telling someone else what todo, whilst you have people doing stuff for you!

domestic staff ? Never.....

Just pointImg out some of the exaggeration and twisting of facts that are being used to make the vote something it isn't. There is (I accept on in too) a lot of distortion and twisting of facts. Often the story that the EU is a dictatorship even though all commissioners are nominated by our elected governments and all legislation gets voted on (or rubber stamped of you call votes that) before approval and the commission does not have the power to enact new legislation alone. Our own democracy which has many other weaknesses is hailed as where one mAn and his vote can change the course.

It's hypocrisy, yes it doesn't effect me as much directly as we will be sheltered from the fall out here , but it doesn't stop me having an opinion .

 

[EalingBlue2]

Over to you Ealing!

Thank you sir!

 

[BigJoe#1]

domestic staff ? Never.....

Just pointImg out some of the exaggeration and twisting of facts that are being used to make the vote something it isn't. There is (I accept on in too) a lot of distortion and twisting of facts. Often the story that the EU is a dictatorship even though all commissioners are nominated by our elected governments and all legislation gets voted on (or rubber stamped of you call votes that) before approval and the commission does not have the power to enact new legislation alone. Our own democracy which has many other weaknesses is hailed as where one mAn and his vote can change the course.

It's hypocrisy, yes it doesn't effect me as much directly as we will be sheltered from the fall out here , but it doesn't stop me having an opinion .

and seriously it is valued!

 

[west didsblue]

Cameron was being rather duplicitous this morning. He was adamantly making the point that we have a veto on whether Turkey is allowed into the EU without mentioning that he's been actively supporting their application for membership.

 

[EalingBlue2]

and seriously it is valued!

Deeply I am sure, haven't had much to do with most of the domestic political threads for the very reason that only something major like this has impact on me and my kids.

I will add (not that anyone much in the Uk is interested but I have the same issues in Australia). The politicians focus on short term things, on deflection and immigration and don't focus on making the country fair and sustainable. I think Australia is in a worrying fiscal position and our debt to gdp is only in the teens% and in an economy that is growing at 3% in a poor year. The UK is at over 80% and a good gdp growth is 1.5% adding to this there are few natural resources in the UK relatively. Now Instead of building for the long term and focusing on solutions , the UK are running off spending years focusing on independence for Scotland or Brexit votes that will do nothing to solve the issues rather than tackling the issues.

The worst thing is not a single outer and barely any Inners ever want to even discuss the real issues and comfort themselves in the fluffy easy philosophical discussions because they don't want to make hard decisions, unpopular decisions and the politicians don't want to make long term calls that can't have an impact before the next election

I would be genuinely interested once you have saved us from the fascist diktats of Europe how would you solve an unsustainable fiscal position, how would you grow productivity, how would you pay for health and ageing with a working population that would shrink without immigration, how would you look after the interests of South Wales in a London dominated country, how would you negotiate equally with the major trading zones of USA, pacific and Europe?

It's all very well saying we need to get out but to do so without a plan, without a strategy, without an acknowledgement of the issues facing the country seems folly.

There are one or two outers on here such as metal biker and one inner (who got shouted off the board) who actually acknowledge the issues and realise the risks, for everyone else it seems nothing more than a cafe latte conversation in Chelsea and not an honest conversation about the future of Britain.

There are also so many exaggerations and falacies that it is hard not to jump in, even from down here in sunny Aus! British politics is becoming like the US full of mad scare stories, exaggeration and falsehood invreasingly they go unchallenged on both sides.

However in any vote for change it is inevitably more guesswork has to be made by the call for change rather than that for status quo

 

[EalingBlue2]

Cameron was being rather duplicitous this morning. He was adamantly making the point that we have a veto on whether Turkey is allowed into the EU without mentioning that he's been actively supporting their application for membership.

Cameron duplicitous - never!

 

[Zuriblue]

Cameron was being rather duplicitous this morning. He was adamantly making the point that we have a veto on whether Turkey is allowed into the EU without mentioning that he's been actively supporting their application for membership.

It's got to be unanimous. Good luck with that considering Greece and Cyprus both have to vote yes.

They also have to fulfill about 40 criteria for membership, so far they've passed 1. We're not going to see Turkey in the EU for a long time if ever.

 

[Zuriblue]

Deeply I am sure, haven't had much to do with most of the domestic political threads for the very reason that only something major like this has impact on me and my kids.

I will add not that anyone much in the Uk is interested but I have the same issues in Australia. The politicians focus on short term things, on deflection and. Immigration and don't focus on making the country fair and sustainable. I think Australia is in a worrying fiscal position and our debt to gap is only in the teens and in an economy that is growing at 3% in a poor year. The UK is at over 80% and success is 1.5% and there are few natural resources . Instead of building for the long term and focusing on solutions you are running off spending years on independence and Brexit votes that will do nothing to solve the issues.

The worst thing is not a single outer and barely any Inners every want to discuss the real issues and you comfort yourself in the fluffy easy philosophical ones because you don't want to make hard decisions and the politicians don't want to make long term ones.

I would be engineer interested once you have saved us from the fascist diktats of Europe how would you solve an unsustainable fiscal position, how would you grow productivity, how would you pay for health and ageing with a working population that would shrink without immigration, how would you look after the interests of South Wales in a London dominated country, how would you negotiate equally with the major trading zones of USA, pacific and Europe?

It's all very well saying we need to get out but to do so without a plan, without a strategy, without an acknowledgement of the issues facing the country seems folly.

There are one or two outers on here such as metal biker and one inner who got shouted off the board who actually acknowledge the issues and realise the risks for everyone else it seems nothing more than a cafe latte conversation in Chelsea and not an honesty conversation about the future of Britain.

There are also so many exaggerations and galaxies that it is hard not to jump in even from down here in sunny Aus! British politics is becoming like the US just mad scare stories, exaggeration and falsehood that go unchallenged on both sides. However in any vote for change it is inevitable more guess have to be made by the call for change rather than status quo

You post that from your phone?

 

[cibaman]

Another month to go. I don't think anything new has been said in the last month. Just the same claims and counter claims. I suspect that by the time 23 June comes round a lot of people will have become bored of the subject. This campaign is just too long.

 

[EalingBlue2]

You post that from your phone?

Ive never posted anything not from my phone, always whilst multi tasking, in this case I have not even had time to proof read, I am sure the spelling, autocorrection makes it obvious? Will read....

You know your galaxies from your falacies and your engineers from your genuinelys ' don't you !

 

[EalingBlue2]

Another month to go. I don't think anything new has been said in the last month. Just the same claims and counter claims. I suspect that by the time 23 June comes round a lot of people will have become bored of the subject. This campaign is just too long.

imagine being American 6 months till the election and nearly a year into the campaigning

 

[cibaman]

imagine being American 6 months till the election and nearly a year into the campaigning

I worked for a couple of weeks in the US about 14 months before a Presidential election. The level of tv coverage was unbelievable.

 

[mekonmcfc]

I'm still undecided and see pro's and con's on both sides. However i think a lot of it is smoke and mirrors. I'd love to read a truly independent view to help with my choice