EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
Status
Not open for further replies.
laserblue said:
Get real. Nearly half of our export trade is with the EU and without a trade deal our exports will be subject to tariffs making them more expensive at point of use in the EU. If there are other ready markets out there that we can steam into to take up the slack why aren't we already doing this? Some are talking about the glorious opportunities in Commonwealth markets but Commonwealth Preference Tariffs were scrapped decades ago so that argument is even more redundant than it was 40 years ago when others with a similarly tenuous grip on reality were putting it forward during the 1975 Common Market referendum.

As for your argumment about the effects of Brexit on immigration, below is part of my post from yesterday.

"....., the situation in the 'Jungle' in Calais is that, as part of cross border co-operation within the EU, the French authorities are committed to do their best to prevent these people (and any others) from illegal access to the UK. There is also a British police presence in Calais to monitor the situation and co-operate with the French. Calais is therefore effectively our border. If we leave the EU the French police will wash their hands of the migrant issue in Calais and no longer prevent anyone from attempting to enter the UK illegally as it would no longer be either their problem or their responsibility. The British police contingent would also have to be withdrawn. This would mean open season for illegal migrants and the couple of recent instances of boats full of them caught crossing the Channel would increase exponentially and northern France would become a magnet for many more migrants trying to enter the UK illegally."
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Wouldn't the people of Calais and northern France have a strong incentive to stop the area from becoming a magnet for migrants trying to cross to the UK?
 
laserblue said:
Get real. Nearly half of our export trade is with the EU and without a trade deal our exports will be subject to tariffs making them more expensive at point of use in the EU. If there are other ready markets out there that we can steam into to take up the slack why aren't we already doing this? Some are talking about the glorious opportunities in Commonwealth markets but Commonwealth Preference Tariffs were scrapped decades ago so that argument is even more redundant than it was 40 years ago when others with a similarly tenuous grip on reality were putting it forward during the 1975 Common Market referendum.
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Don´t be scared mate. Punitive tariffs are banned under WTO rules.
 
Surely France would not be able just to let people run through the Channel tunnel just because we have left the EU?.
There are huge security issues in doing that, not least to their own people.

I'm pretty sure that if we left, following the transition period, us everyday folk won't notice much difference in a negative sense. And all this 'it took X 5 yers to negotiate', so what? I'm confident the will of the EU to negotiate with the UK will be high enough to do this in a timely fashion ad also, 5 years out of the next 100 isn't that long when you think about it

It is a long term issue, not one ot be decided on mobile phone tariffs and self imposed obstacles by the 'in' campaign
 
Do we actually need a whole-of-EU trade deal that is conditional on unqualified free movement? Or could we negotiate bi-lateral deals with those EU and non-EU countries that are most relevant?

Is unfettered freedom of movement an inevitable price to pay to continue buying BMWs and selling Range Rovers to Germany? Do we care hugely whether we have a protocol with Austria and Slovakia?
 
laserblue said:
Get real. Nearly half of our export trade is with the EU and without a trade deal our exports will be subject to tariffs making them more expensive at point of use in the EU.
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That's only half the story though :). The elephant in the room that the Brexit campaign fail to adress is that the WTO rules have tarriffs and quotas. Once you've sold your quota you are either prevented from selling more or the tarrifs are prohibitively high and you effectively sell at a loss and there is plenty of extra capacity in Europe to fill the void of British exports.
 
Gaudion M said:
Immigration from the EU is less than half of the net figure! And then on top of that you acknowledge that we need some of these people so we would have a points system! So leaving does not actually do a massive amount for imigration just a few car washers less! Is that worth screwing up the whole economy for?
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You are missing the point unlimited EU immigration would be ended and the best of the best would then compete for a reduced immigration level targeted to get us back to the 50,000 a year we had pre 1997 under a worldwide points based system. For the ordinary Brit looking for a job, a better job, higher pay or training fewer competitors from open door EU immigration and as many again from outside the EU has only created greater less opportunities and greater competition for Brits, the very reason big business and government wants unlimited mass immigration, it provides an endless over supply of cheap unskilled immigrant workers. As for screwing up the economy how does the ordinary worker benefit from less opportunities, greater competition and at what point do we admit the population can not continue to increase at 333,000 a year? If a Brit can't find a job, earn enough to pay their bills, find their next better paid job, buy or even rent a home or get a doctors appointment what are the risks to them? Why should they compete with immigrants arriving from countries where incomes are a fraction of those here Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. You state with total confidence our economy will be worse, what worse than Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and France's? Worse for whom? The same confidence that demanded we join the Euro or it would screw up our economy, the same politicians, the same institutions and the same big businesses that are so sure leaving now will screw up our economy.
 
grunge said:
This has been popping up in facebook recently and seems quite accurate

13342921_2731656456881527_214867143700636803_n.jpg
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But on a positive note....hey....it might be better, wow, never thought of that.
Do we really need an umbrella of beurocracy to cower under.
 
Tuearts right boot said:
But on a positive note....hey....it might be better, wow, never thought of that.
Do we really need an umbrella of beurocracy to cower under.
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You seem to have missed the point of it, its the fact there is NO PLAN ( that we have been told of ) Exiter's have no clue what they are voting on.
 
blueish swede said:
That's only half the story though :). The elephant in the room that the Brexit campaign fail to adress is that the WTO rules have tarriffs and quotas. Once you've sold your quota you are either prevented from selling more or the tarrifs are prohibitively high and you effectively sell at a loss and there is plenty of extra capacity in Europe to fill the void of British exports.
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Meanwhile German, French and EU exporters are going to do what when they run a massive trade deficit with us, cheer on the EU as the UK imposes reciprocal tariffs on EU exports. The EU today is weak, the euro debt crisis is still with it and the migrant crisis threatens to overwhelm it, even Schengen is at best in suspension, fences and closed borders are going up all over the EU. The last thing the EU needs is a trade war with the UK and the EU knows it, only Remainers desperate to keep us in a failed declining EU won't admit it.
 
adrian99 said:
You are missing the point unlimited EU immigration would be ended and the best of the best would then compete for a reduced immigration level targeted to get us back to the 50,000 a year we had pre 1997 under a worldwide points based system. For the ordinary Brit looking for a job, a better job, higher pay or training fewer competitors from open door EU immigration and as many again from outside the EU has only created greater less opportunities and greater competition for Brits, the very reason big business and government wants unlimited mass immigration, it provides an endless over supply of cheap unskilled immigrant workers. As for screwing up the economy how does the ordinary worker benefit from less opportunities, greater competition and at what point do we admit the population can not continue to increase at 333,000 a year? If a Brit can't find a job, earn enough to pay their bills, find their next better paid job, buy or even rent a home or get a doctors appointment what are the risks to them? Why should they compete with immigrants arriving from countries where incomes are a fraction of those here Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia or Slovenia. You state with total confidence our economy will be worse, what worse than Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and France's? Worse for whom? The same confidence that demanded we join the Euro or it would screw up our economy, the same politicians, the same institutions and the same big businesses that are so sure leaving now will screw up our economy.
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The point you make has ignored the big picture and focused on one side of the issue. Exiting the EU puts trade with the EU at risk and plunges us in to a world of uncertainty which is very bad for business. There would undoubtedly be an adverse economic impact in the short term and in the long term the UK would be a much less desirable place to locate a business – so big business and global investment will go elsewhere. So voting out will on some level make it easier for brits to get jobs (on the basis we don’t let foreigners in to compete) but in the bigger picture there will be less big business and less investment in the future and therefore less jobs and we will live in a less prosperous country that struggles to compete with the rest of Europe never mind the rest of the world. The argument for British jobs is completely flawed on this basis.
 
grunge said:
You seem to have missed the point of it, its the fact there is NO PLAN ( that we have been told of ) Exiter's have no clue what they are voting on.
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They would be voting for democracy. If I don't like the Tory's(I don't), I can vote them out, if I don't like the President of the EU, I cannot vote them out. They is one of the issues, the 'outers' are voting on - seems a reasonable place to start
 
grunge said:
You seem to have missed the point of it, its the fact there is NO PLAN ( that we have been told of ) Exiter's have no clue what they are voting on.
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I'm not sure the inners really have a plan either. In the 1975 referendum, I doubt the voters had a clear picture of what the EU would turn into when voting yes. If the yes vote prevails this time, who knows what the EU will look like over the coming decades. So inners probably have no clue what they are going to get either.
 
Blue Hefner said:
They would be voting for democracy. If I don't like the Tory's(I don't), I can vote them out, if I don't like the President of the EU, I cannot vote them out. They is one of the issues, the 'outers' are voting on - seems a reasonable place to start
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It would be reasonable if it was true, but its not.

There is no President of the EU. Each section of the EU has a president ( Council, Commission and Parliament ).

The commission And Parliament presidents are elected by the Parliament ( MEPs, who we vote in! ) and the Council president is elected by the heads of state of member countries ( Who we vote in ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Union

Sounds really undemocratic!.
 
KnaresboroughBlue said:
I'm not sure the inners really have a plan either. In the 1975 referendum, I doubt the voters had a clear picture of what the EU would turn into when voting yes. If the yes vote prevails this time, who knows what the EU will look like over the coming decades. So inners probably have no clue what they are going to get either.
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We will get more of the same if we vote in, if we vote out we have no idea who we will trade with, if we are going a Norway/Switzerland or Free trade route, if we will sign into the EEA ( with all the issues with that, IE free movement of people ) etc etc etc.

without knowing how the gov will handle an exit vote we cant make an educated vote. Some people will be voting out expecting a Free trade thing, others will expect us to cuddle up to china and the states, others will expect a Norway route. All very different things..
 
KnaresboroughBlue said:
I'm not sure the inners really have a plan either. In the 1975 referendum, I doubt the voters had a clear picture of what the EU would turn into when voting yes. If the yes vote prevails this time, who knows what the EU will look like over the coming decades. So inners probably have no clue what they are going to get either.
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Unfortunately you're wasting your time with that question, as I've posted it here on quite a few occasions and its either not answered or someone finds a tenuous link to a superstate fear or racism and boom the question doesn't get answered. No one can answer it because they are in the same position as the leave campaign in giving a definitive answer to an impossible question to answer.
 
grunge said:
We will get more of the same if we vote in, if we vote out we have no idea who we will trade with, if we are going a Norway/Switzerland or Free trade route, if we will sign into the EEA ( with all the issues with that, IE free movement of people ) etc etc etc.

without knowing how the gov will handle an exit vote we cant make an educated vote. Some people will be voting out expecting a Free trade thing, others will expect us to cuddle up to china and the states, others will expect a Norway route. All very different things..
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Who knows what staying in will bring though? Will we go fully in and adopt the euro etc or stay on the fringes as now?
 
grunge said:
It would be reasonable if it was true, but its not.

There is no President of the EU. Each section of the EU has a president ( Council, Commission and Parliament ).

The commission And Parliament presidents are elected by the Parliament ( MEPs, who we vote in! ) and the Council president is elected by the heads of state of member countries ( Who we vote in ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Union

Sounds really undemocratic!.
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I have some sympathy with the view that the EU is in many repects undemocratic, but don't see the same uproar about becoming a republic, abolishing the House of Lords, putting in place systems to vote for levels of the civil service that govern us without ever having been voted in and changing our current voting system so it reflects the will of the people

What % of the electorate voted for our current govt again? Democracy yeah?
 
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