EU referendum

[Monkfish]

Unfortunately you're wasting your time with that question, as I've posted it here on quite a few occasions and its either not answered or someone finds a tenuous link to a superstate fear or racism and boom the question doesn't get answered. No one can answer it because they are in the same position as the leave campaign in giving a definitive answer to an impossible question to answer.

the question has been repeatedly answered, your acceptance of an answer is not a requirement

 

[grunge]

Who knows what staying in will bring though? Will we go fully in and adopt the euro etc or stay on the fringes as now?

Both are possible but its unlikley we would join the Euro zone, but your talking about events that may occur in the distant future ( decades ), exiting creates immediate decisions that would need addressing within weeks.

There is no way the Gov doesn't know which way they will want to take the country on an exit, they need to be telling us so we can make educated votes.

 

[TonyM]

Racist.

Its racist to not call someone racist these days. :-)

 

[grunge]

I have some sympathy with the view that the EU is in many repects undemocratic, but don't see the same uproar about becoming a republic, abolishing the House of Lords, putting in place systems to vote for levels of the civil service that govern us without ever having been voted in and changing our current voting system so it reflects the will of the people

What % of the electorate voted for our current govt again? Democracy yeah?

There are issues with the EU, no doubt about it, but I wouldn't say Democracy is one of them, Transparency is a far bigger issue for me. People seem to have swallowed some "Undemocratic" sound bite and run with it without knowing how it runs.

 

[PragueBlue]

Both are possible but its unlikley we would join the Euro zone, but your talking about events that may occur in the distant future ( decades ), exiting creates immediate decisions that would need addressing within weeks.

I appreciate the time scales are different but I believe any decision should be about which is best for the long-term future of the country rather than basing decisions on fear of the short-term. Some short-term pain may be worth it if it brings about better long-term gain. Both sides are having to take a stab in the dark about that.

 

[adrian99]

It would be reasonable if it was true, but its not.

There is no President of the EU. Each section of the EU has a president ( Council, Commission and Parliament ).

The commission And Parliament presidents are elected by the Parliament ( MEPs, who we vote in! ) and the Council president is elected by the heads of state of member countries ( Who we vote in ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Union

Sounds really undemocratic!.

The fact you are arguing the EU is democratic says it all. Who put a cross on a ballot for Jean-Claude Juncker, Martin Schulz or Donald Tusk? When we voted for our MEPs did it say if xx is elected then they will vote for Jean-Claude Juncker? The EU is worse than the old TUC at least back then most could vote for coffee and the leaders overrule and vote for tea.

 

[grunge]

I appreciate the time scales are different but I believe any decision should be about which is best for the long-term future of the country rather than basing decisions on fear of the short-term. Some short-term pain may be worth it if it brings about better long-term gain. Both sides are having to take a stab in the dark about that.

I agree that long term is where we need to be setting our sights, but without knowing the direction the gov will take means that long term view is radically different. each outer will be seeing things differently as there is no clarity, or even a rough guide as to where we may head.

IE a lot of brexiters are voting based on Immigration, but if we exit and go Norway's route ( or any route that we join the EEA ) we will still have to allow the uncontrolled immigration. If we did that we will have a lot of pissed off brexiters but its one of the more likely scenarios.

 

[laserblue]

Wouldn't the people of Calais and northern France have a strong incentive to stop the area from becoming a magnet for migrants trying to cross to the UK?

They'd be a bit happier with thousands of migrants passing through rather than than thousands of migrants setting up a huge squatter camp on the outskirts of their town which is what they have now. If they're not stopping because they don't want to stay in France the French authorities would treat that situation as much the lesser of two evils and would be happy t see them move on to the UK by wahtever means. This is what the people of places like Lesbos and Sicily are faced with on a daily basis but the Greek and Italian authorities don't attempt to stop them because the vast majority are only in transit.

 

[grunge]

The fact you are arguing the EU is democratic says it all. Who put a cross on a ballot for Jean-Claude Juncker, Martin Schulz or Donald Tusk? When we voted for our MEPs did it say if xx is elected then they will vote for Jean-Claude Juncker? The EU is worse than the old TUC at least back then most could vote for coffee and the leaders overrule and vote for tea.

And from that comment it shows you dont know how democracy works.

We voted people in, they then voted others in. Its the way democracy has worked for millennia. Its how our goverment works!, If Cameron goes you wont get an election to vote for a new leader, the current batch of MP's ( that have already been voted in ) and members of the Tory party will do that.

 

[TonyM]

There are issues with the EU, no doubt about it, but I wouldn't say Democracy is one of them, Transparency is a far bigger issue for me. People seem to have swallowed some "Undemocratic" sound bite and run with it without knowing how it runs.

The democracy debate doesn't sit with me either. I'm Irish so have no say...but my fear with the EU is the road to federalism and the fact that what s best for the EU is not best for me and mine. I also detest the licking up and propoganda that's used to promote any EU idea.

I've seen it here with relation to the banks, water charges (with no net benefit), property taxes (anything but the dreaded income tax that I can aford to pay but others can't), shutting down bogs for the sake of the bloody flowers. They have no idea about Irish people - other than the yes men they see in Dublin. They couldn't give a toss about me. Not unless I do a nice jig for them.

Couldn't we all just get along as we did back in the good old days of the EEC :-)

 

[AlgarveBlu]

the question has been repeatedly answered, your acceptance of an answer is not a requirement

Apart from grunge just now saying nothing changes I don't recall seeing an answer at all so if you've posted on it already and can copy your response I would be interested to read it

 

[cibaman]

I appreciate the time scales are different but I believe any decision should be about which is best for the long-term future of the country rather than basing decisions on fear of the short-term. Some short-term pain may be worth it if it brings about better long-term gain. Both sides are having to take a stab in the dark about that.

I'm inclined to the view that a Johnson led government, with a Brexit dominated Cabinet and no effective opposition, could do serious long term damage to the country. Never mind the EU,

 

[laserblue]

Don´t be scared mate. Punitive tariffs are banned under WTO rules.

Who said anything about tariffs being punitive? I spent my entire working life in exports and I can assure you that export markets are much more competitive than the domestic market and any sort of tariff or duty (effectively they amount to the same thing) will make our products more expensive. Maintaining a competitive edge is vital and even a small percentage differential can result in the loss of a contract or project. Our exporting companies need every competitive advantage they can get.

See also Blueish Swede's response below.

The elephant in the room that the Brexit campaign fail to adress is that the WTO rules have tarriffs and quotas. Once you've sold your quota you are either prevented from selling more or the tarrifs are prohibitively high and you effectively sell at a loss and there is plenty of extra capacity in Europe to fill the void of British exports.

 

[laserblue]

I'm inclined to the view that a Johnson led government, with a Brexit dominated Cabinet and no effective opposition, could do serious long term damage to the country. Never mind the EU,

How anyone can support a campaign fronted by buffoons like Johnson, Gove or Farage I'll never know. Louise Minchin owned Farage on Breakfast TV this morning when he sidestepped her question on how boatloads of illegal migrants can be stopped if we leave the EU. Farage's facile reply was that we'd simply strengthen our border controls to vet who can and cannot enter the UK. Derrr Nigel. We're talking ILLEGAL migrants here, not those that arrive at Heathrow or on Eurostar.

Do any of the Brexit supporters on here know who is the only world leader who supports the leave campaign? That's right. It's Vladimir Putin. That should be be enough to raise a doubt or two for a start.

 

[worsleyweb]

How anyone can support a campaign fronted by buffoons like Johnson, Gove or Farage I'll never know. Louise Minchin owned Farage on Breakfast TV this morning when he sidestepped her question on how boatloads of illegal migrants can be stopped if we leave the EU. Farage's facile reply was that we'd simply strengthen our border controls to vet who can and cannot enter the UK. Derrr Nigel. We're talking ILLEGAL migrants here, not those that arrive at Heathrow or on Eurostar.

Do any of the Brexit supporters on here know who is the only world leader who supports the leave campaign? That's right. It's Vladimir Putin. That should be be enough to raise a doubt or two for a start.

The only leader not hamstrung by political correctness.

 

[grunge]

The only leader not hamstrung by political correctness.

Dear god can you imaging Trump and Johnson meeting up!.

 

[blueish swede]

The fact you are arguing the EU is democratic says it all. Who put a cross on a ballot for Jean-Claude Juncker, Martin Schulz or Donald Tusk? When we voted for our MEPs did it say if xx is elected then they will vote for Jean-Claude Juncker? The EU is worse than the old TUC at least back then most could vote for coffee and the leaders overrule and vote for tea.

Martin Schulz was voted as president of the EU by a vote of all MEPs, in a similar way that the Speaker of the House of Commons is elected by MPs in the UK parliament. In Schiulz case, he was elected to the EU Parlaiment by the voters of a constituency in Germany , the same way any other MEP is elected and therfore has a mandate from the people and has the right to vote, in the same way as an MP can vote in the UK.

Jean-Claude Juncker is also voted for by MEPs in the European Parliament, but since there is no necessity for the President of the European Commission to be an elected MEP, i.e elected by a popular vote, he has no voting rights himself.

Donald Tusk was chosen by the political leaders of the member nations of the EU. As with Juncker, there is no pre-requisite of a popular vote to the Council for the role and so the President of the European Council has no voting rights in the Council (although they could if he/she was also a sitting political head of a member state, like Cameron).

 

[worsleyweb]

Dear god can you imaging Trump and Johnson meeting up!.

Or Corbyn and Hilary Clinton!

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

How anyone can support a campaign fronted by buffoons like Johnson, Gove or Farage I'll never know. Louise Minchin owned Farage on Breakfast TV this morning when he sidestepped her question on how boatloads of illegal migrants can be stopped if we leave the EU. Farage's facile reply was that we'd simply strengthen our border controls to vet who can and cannot enter the UK. Derrr Nigel. We're talking ILLEGAL migrants here, not those that arrive at Heathrow or on Eurostar.

Do any of the Brexit supporters on here know who is the only world leader who supports the leave campaign? That's right. It's Vladimir Putin. That should be be enough to raise a doubt or two for a start.

Gove alone is enough to make me vote in!

Can you imagine what the tory party will become if the vote leave campaign wins!!!!

 

[laserblue]

The only leader not hamstrung by political correctness.

The only leader who would be ecstatic at the EU becoming divided and weaker. He still hasn't forgiven the EU for taking Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Hungary, Poland, Czech Reublic, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Romania away from Russia's sphere of political and economic influence.