EU referendum

[BigJoe#1]

so who's arse are you up Johnsons or Farages - as you are just as one eyed in your comments and just as dismissive. Personally think you both have strong views and its nowt to do with being up anyone's arse but you raised it.

Thanks for that endorsement from someone sitting firmly on the fence PMSL!

 

[mcfc1632]

I'm really sympathetic to the "out" vote primarily over the sense that we don't get a fair deal compared to our contribution and fear over border security.. but I voted "in" Two principal reasons: 1. We can always vote out later. 2. The Italian proverb: If you aren't at the table, you are on the menu. I'd rather we were at the table.

As referenced/inferred in my post reminding people of Cameron's view on Juncker - the horrible position we are in now is (IMO) much worse - we are at the table and we have to pay an unfair share of the bill - but we are not able to select the courses ordered and we get simply ignored when we try to speak up and get our preferences into what is being ordered

 

[Tim of the Oak]

So Keiron Conway a self confessed IRA man knows who's responsible for the Birmingham bombings, acknowledges that the authorities in Ireland and the UK know who are responsible but he won't name names publicly (fair enough).

However these individuals who live in Ireland cannot be extradited. Please remind me of the benefits of being in the EU? Yet again we've been let down by the EU!

So this is the fault of the EU and not our Government who wrote to IRA terrorists giving them a clean slate. We have European arrest warrant agreements across the UK. Al Qaeda terrorists have been arrested in Italy and no end of Salford gangsters have been brought back from Spain.

Why don't we focus on the facts. Four times Gove (as Minister for Education) stopped schools from getting essential new buildings through sheer incompetence. Is this the sort of guy you want running the Country?

 

[mcfc1632]

Those people died fighting , racism, xenophobia, a nation attaching and murdering immigrants and basing its politics on division. Churchill their leader was one of the most pro europe leaders this country will ever have. He would be turning on his grave at the Mosely like rhetoric of the outers and the division they seek to sew as would many many who died .

As for sovereignty of that nature it has not existed for a century and William Blake style poetry calling for us to turn the world back a century to the Victorian days and believing it could happen is touchingly naiive and in a way quite sweet.

Wow - to blanket-infer that 'outers' should be considered to be like Mosely (IMO) at a stroke renders any of your posts to be mutterings of an extreme thinker that swings in the wind desperately seeking any point (fanciful and insulting or not) that (in your view) supports your argument.

At a different level of nonsense - seeking to infer Churchill would be someone pro-EU in its current form is also desperate

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Inners claiming high ground because of Churchill and the war are scraping the barrel.

Compared to Brexiters claiming the EU is responsible for the IRA. No comparison!!!

 

[EalingBlue2]

Pp

There is new evidence and these people are associated but they cannot and will not be. I genuinely thought the strength of the EU was to enable such extraditions to happen. Rather than blaming the EU I am asking why this is the case? It is within the remit and a major selling point of the EU that this extradition agreement is in place.

Anyway, listen to the UK news and you'll catch up, there's a good chap!

Because countries have far more influence about this that's you pretend and because basic rules of evidence and process apply and because if there is no hope of conviction the extradition will never be applied for. As it hasn't been formerly applied for how can the EU be blamed for something that hasn't been requested. One of thailands most wanted criminals and a terrorist wanted by the US remain in Ireland because they have control through their courts of extradition .
I have seen the news decisions are being made on whether to re-open inquests closed because the West Midlands police caught the perpetrators so quickly and easily , if they are then there may be a chance that new evidence will come to light, then there may be a chance that police will want to interview someone, then there may be a chance that extradition could be requested , then there may be a chance it will be reviewed by an Irish court etc etc.

In attempting to Demonise the EU and blame the EU for everything you are drawing many conclusions, drawing a long bow and blaming the EU for allowing too much sovereignty which is ironic since you usually argue they are taking sovereignty. Which means you will argue against yourself if it means you can blame it on the EU.

Let's wait and see what happens... I suspect the British and the police would love it all to be swept away as the evidence was so damning from the lasts require it has been locked away till 2069

 

[BigJoe#1]

So this is the fault of the EU and not our Government who wrote to IRA terrorists giving them a clean slate. We have European arrest warrant agreements across the UK. Al Qaeda terrorists have been arrested in Italy and no end of Salford gangsters have been brought back from Spain.

Why don't we focus on the facts. Four times Gove (as Minister for Education) stopped schools from getting essential new buildings through sheer incompetence. Is this the sort of guy you want running the Country?

Only thing I can say to this Tim is I agree wholeheartedly that Gove is a complete and utter tosspot and is not fit to run thus country, but no more a tosspot or less fit to run this country than Cameron and Osborne.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

One word Cibaman - STEALTH!

How on earth did we get from a common market where everyone could sell goods to each other to where we are today?

True some stealth was involved. That said, we would have protested more had we not been shifting from an economic basket case, where power cuts meant we used candles for lighting, to our current position of being the fifth biggest economy in the World!

 

[EalingBlue2]

Wow - to blanket-infer that 'outers' should be considered to be like Mosely (IMO) at a stroke renders any of your posts to be mutterings of an extreme thinker that swings in the wind desperately seeking any point (fanciful and insulting or not) that (in your view) supports your argument.

At a different level of nonsense - seeking to infer Churchill would be someone pro-EU in its current form is also desperate

He was in terms of his day about as pro European as you could get, in today's terms he made kinnock look like Farage.

No one should be claiming the millions who fought in WW2 as all fighting for one reason and it was people claiming that the military/ population fought to protect us from immigration and bodies like the EU is laughable.

Again the outers make an outrageous claim and when it is contradicted they get all indignant. In very few cases has it been an inner who has made the first assertion about these types of things.

Simple contradiction of misinformation is sadly all that is needed in a Brexit campaign which is surely coming off the rails?

 

[BigJoe#1]

Compared to Brexiters claiming the EU is responsible for the IRA. No comparison!!!

Jesus Navas Tim.... and EB2 accuses me of drawing long sighted conclusions....?

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Only thing I can say to this Tim is I agree wholeheartedly that Gove is a complete and utter tosspot and is not fit to run thus country, but no more a tosspot or less fit to run this country than Cameron and Osborne.

Cheers Joe. IMHO, Gove makes Osborne and Cameron look good and as someone whose never voted Tory, that takes some doing!

 

[EalingBlue2]

Only thing I can say to this Tim is I agree wholeheartedly that Gove is a complete and utter tosspot and is not fit to run thus country, but no more a tosspot or less fit to run this country than Cameron and Osborne.

Those 3 and Johnson and Farage are all toss pots and it is fucking outrageous that the British population is fighting each other so that one of those two cabals wins and assumes power. We should be fighting against all 5 of them and what they stand for and not each other , but they have cleverly strengthened their position by turning working man against working man and convinced a lot of people that the problems of the world are down to the EU and not the fact that a handful of distasteful individuals wield huge power and wealth whilst the poor be they immigrants or indigenous are utterly screwed

 

[EalingBlue2]

Jesus Navas Tim.... and EB2 accuses me of drawing long sighted conclusions....?

To be fair Tim I think he is blaming police incompetence and Irish extradition rules on the EU and not for the IRA it is a long now but not quite that long

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Jesus Navas Tim.... and EB2 accuses me of drawing long sighted conclusions....?

Haha Joe! OK mate.

I once had a run in with unsavoury Northern Irishers but I'm afraid I can't write it on here!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

To be fair Tim I think he is blaming police incompetence and Irish extradition rules on the EU and not for the IRA it is a long now but not quite that long

Fair enough.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Again why make things up , why twist facts and why support a case if you can only make it by blaming the EU.

They have been very clear that the issues which would mean a non conviction are lack of any hard evidence , Irish extradition rules etc. It is also pretty clear that the whole mess of the wrongful convictions and the reason they got away was entirely a British failure in intelligence and the law services not down to the EU. There is barely a country on the whole planet that would extradite people 40 years after a crime when there is no hard evidence and certainly there is no country that extradited without a request.

I think we should start a sweepstake on what the EU will get blamed for next that is nothing to do with them.

I reckon England now winning the World Cup since 66, the abuse of Welsh language speakers in the first half of the 20th century and the Lennon assassination will be next to be blamed on the EU.

But it's gold the EU is to blame for not extraditing people where there is no hard evidence , so no prospect of conviction, where the extradition laws from the time which apply were pre EU and where extradition hasn't even been requested .

If you want anyone to have a go at over the fact murderers went free do and look at the West Midlands police

Can we please call the award the Nokia Trophy!

 

[EalingBlue2]

Thanks for that endorsement from someone sitting firmly on the fence PMSL!

I'm not up anyone's arse on this I despise Cameron and Osborne even though I agree with them on this. I am firm in my beliefs that this is a vote at the wrong time and based on fiction not facts and that rather than turning on immigrants and breaking Europe up we should be focusing on the real issues

 

[mcfc1632]

He was in terms of his day about as pro European as you could get, in today's terms he made kinnock look like Farage.

No one should be claiming the millions who fought in WW2 as all fighting for one reason and it was people claiming that the military/ population fought to protect us from immigration and bodies like the EU is laughable.

Again the outers make an outrageous claim and when it is contradicted they get all indignant. In very few cases has it been an inner who has made the first assertion about these types of things.

Simple contradiction of misinformation is sadly all that is needed in a Brexit campaign which is surely coming off the rails?

But in my view you do yourself and the in-campaign a disservice to extrapolate the views and actions of Churchill at the time of pre and post the 2nd World War to suggest that he would be pro-EU in its current form.

As equally valid (but invalid in my view) would be outers using his views and actions as proof positive that he was against an enforced European-wide state.

Better (and more honest) surely to simply recognise that that state of things 70 years ago is not so easily compared directly to the state of things now.

Also your earlier inference that outers were akin to 'Blackshirts' should be beneath you - especially as I have seen you post suggestions that other posters 'make things up' - you lose credibility

 

[EalingBlue2]

But in my view you to yourself and the in-campaign a disservice to extrapolate the views and actions of Churchill at the time of pre and post the 2nd World War to suggest that he would be pro-EU in its current form.

As equally valid (but invalid in my view) would be outers using his views and actions as proof positive that he was against an enforced European-wide state.

Better (and more honest) surely to simply recognise that that state of things 70 years ago is not so easily compared directly to the state of things now.

Also your earlier inference that outers were akin to 'Blackshirts' should be beneath you - especially as I have seen you post suggestions that other posters 'make things up' - you lose credibility

Don't disagree - someone wrote a post basically saying people died in the war to stop the EU and I was pointing out what rot that was rather than pretending Churchill had any sense of a future EU- would be interesting to see what he made of today's world.

Didn't I call outers Blacklegs and not Blackshirts? That was a comment about poor people turning against poor people rather than on the real causes of the issues and a comment on blackleg labour of the past. Though there are posters on here who could easily have been blackshirts back in the day

 

[AlgarveBlu]

True some stealth was involved. That said, we would have protested more had we not been shifting from an economic basket case, where power cuts meant we used candles for lighting, to our current position of being the fifth biggest economy in the World!

From the time frames you are quoting, you'll find that it was the de-regulation of the financial markets in 1986 (big bang) was the catalyst to the prosperity and wealth the uk finds itself with today as it turned the city of London into the worlds leading financial centre bar none - the eu has contributed in some aspects but that can't be compared to the impact that London has had in the UK. Many on the left will argue that this prosperity has come at the hand of the uk's manufacturing and coal industries which is true - but the city has always been every uk's government golden ticket to revenue