EU referendum

[tom]

The point was - do you retrospectively issue work permits, or revisit each case on it's own merits.
Plus, of course, for the future we now have to issue permits - but we've not being doing that for EU players - ergo, could we see a change in the ease of using EU players.

i have no idea... i just think football will be fine

 

[FanchesterCity]

I'm not buying this whole 'masters of our own destiny' line. We are not in control of our destiny either in or out of EU. We can influence it, yes, but there are far too many extraneous influences on us to believe we just steer where we like.
A financial shockwave in America hits us - whether we like it or not.
If the price of oil rises - I'm paying more at the pump regardless of who is in charge.
Europe's not particularly wealthy in natural resources, so our collective bargaining is going to become more and more important - and there's a good chance that we might need to find solutions to that by sharing more and more utilities - water, electricity etc.

 

[FanchesterCity]

i have no idea... i just think football will be fine

Will we do better in CL? that's the important thing here!

 

[YPhrunts]

Either way, I bet Dave wishes he'd stayed in the Boar's Head.

Hahahahah.

I like it.

 

[smudgedj]

Again, as I've just mentioned to another poster....you dont know what Germany and France will do and I dont need to make an argument for what they will do if we leave....I'm not wanting to vote out.....all the "leaves" can do is base their reasoning on opinion and false hope that Britain are great and we dont need anyone......(genuine question) I'm no expert but isnt it the EU that will set the tariffs not individual countries? Also shouldnt we be more concerned about what we can sell and not what we can buy......after all its exporting goods that would grow the economy? Buying more than you sell just increases the debt or am I missing something?

I think you do know what the french farmers will do if their politicians stop french agricultural exports to the Uk.
Once we leave we can start negotiating trade deals with Commonwealth countries such as Canada, India, Nigeria, Jamaica and Australia, South American countries like Brazil, Bolivia, Chile and Peru. At the moment the UK is specifically prohibited from this. Or we could remain shackled to the corpse of the Eurozone with low rates of economic growth.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

The facts from the Brexit view are:

1) we will have £8,500,000,000 a year to spend - our net contribution to the EU.

2) In addition to the above figure we will have the money (£5,500,000,000) that we give to the EU that they then give back to us telling us where to spend it. The difference us we will be able to decide where we spend that money.

3) we will have control over our borders in that we can decide which skills we need and we can select who comes here, be they from the EU or elsewhere, something we cannot do right now as we are obliged to accept any EU citizen into our country regardless of their skill set and what contribution they may or may not make.

4) we will be able to recruit nurses,doctors or any other professionals from outside the EU something we cannot do at present as we are obliged to take EU unskilled nationals.

These are FACTS about the Leave campaign.... There are more, many more.

You are correct about the unknown element. But I'm not scared of the Unknown, are you?

Hi mate...thanks again for your reply....I would have to use my friend(google!) to counter those figures but facts and recent history from those countries that are not in the EU shows us that we will not be able to agree ANY trade agreements without "freedom of movement"......so we kidding ourselves if we think we'll have more control over our borders, it just isnt going to happen mate....

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

I think you do know what the french farmers will do if their politicians stop french agricultural exports to the Uk.
Once we leave we can start negotiating trade deals with Commonwealth countries such as Canada, India, Nigeria, Jamaica and Australia, South American countries like Brazil, Bolivia, Chile and Peru. At the moment the UK is specifically prohibited from this. Or we could remain shackled to the corpse of the Eurozone with low rates of economic growth.

Point is, you dont know what those deals will be and the impact that will make on the economy.......risk/regard.....and as you dont know the reward, it cant be worth any risk on people lives and the economy.........imho!;)

 

[Monkfish]

The facts from the Brexit view are:

1) we will have £8,500,000,000 a year to spend - our net contribution to the EU.

2) In addition to the above figure we will have the money (£5,500,000,000) that we give to the EU that they then give back to us telling us where to spend it. The difference us we will be able to decide where we spend that money.

3) we will have control over our borders in that we can decide which skills we need and we can select who comes here, be they from the EU or elsewhere, something we cannot do right now as we are obliged to accept any EU citizen into our country regardless of their skill set and what contribution they may or may not make.

4) we will be able to recruit nurses,doctors or any other professionals from outside the EU something we cannot do at present as we are obliged to take EU unskilled nationals.

These are FACTS about the Leave campaign.... There are more, many more.

You are correct about the unknown element. But I'm not scared of the Unknown, are you?

1) UK economic activity in 2015 - £1,800 billion - £8.5 billion sounds a lot to the man on the street - in national economic terms its peanuts, the 72 billion+ a year some forecasts reckon we may lose annually will swallow that 8.5 in weeks

2) Yeah we'll spend that wisely, wonder if the Tories will use that money in under deprived areas where they get no votes anyway, and again its absolute peanuts

3) We will, not a big deal to me but I quite like Europeans, but if you don't like them vote leave. Oh hang on if we want access to the single market like Norway does we wont be able to restrict them anyway, so you will still be awash with those 'Johnny Turks'

4) What? We cannot employ a doctor from America as a fruit picker from Poland has just got the gig at your local health centre? The New Zealander, Australian and two Americans working in my office have been rumbled, they must be 'Johnny Turks' as well

No I ain't scared of the unknown (I have said before on here it would be exciting and interesting), leaving the EU will fuck up my finances a bit, and cause a lot of issues for my loved ones but I will get by as I am lucky enough to have a skill that people will always want to pay for - but a lot of the people who are being conned into voting leave would be in for an almighty shock when investment stops, businesses leave for EU member states, interest rates shoot up etcetcetcetc..........

 

[FanchesterCity]

52% of our immigration is coming from outside the EU.
Whilst there is little doubt that immigration is huge factor in people's decision making, and a general concern regardless of the referendum, we (the UK) have done little to address the issue of those 52%.
To believe that leaving the EU will give us more 'control' is notionally correct, but our lack of tangible controls is already clear to see. Those EU immigrants we now intend to filter at our borders ('more control') is adding almost double to the workload of an already quite poor immigration system.

The notional control being discussed only comes into being once we exercise that control - and at some cost. That's not to say it's not worthwhile (I firmly believe it is), but we must pay for these border controls and tracking of legal visitors (who become illegal by not leaving!). They way the border controls work now is quite slack, and we often let a plane load of passengers through quickly because we trusted other European border checks to do their job... so a flight from Paris often gets waived through quickly. All that will have to change.

We've had decades to address the issue of the 52% already and failed miserably - why should it get any better with twice the workload?

 

[smudgedj]

Point is, you dont know what those deals will be and the impact that will make on the economy.......risk/regard.....and as you dont know the reward, it cant be worth the risk on people lives and the economy.........imho!;)

And you don´t know what´s going to happen on the way to work tomorrow. The cell door is open; feel free to walk through it. There is a whole world out there.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Hi mate...thanks again for your reply....I would have to use my friend(google!) to counter those figures but facts and recent history from those countries that are not in the EU shows us that we will not be able to agree ANY trade agreements without "freedom of movement"......so we kidding ourselves if we think we'll have more control over our borders, it just isnt going to happen mate....

No problem but you asked for facts and they are facts!

The numbers are correct, there is no dispute even from the remain campaign, they like to focus on the £19,500,000,000 that the Leave campaign (stupidly) continuously quote, but the 8,500,000,000 is not disputed. There is arguement that we will have £10,000,000,000 but I prefer to talk to the £8,500,00,00 undisputed figure.

To your point about not being able negotiate withou "freedom of movement". You do not know that, it is not a fact, it's up for grabs. The trade agreements will be negotiated as and when required, again it is not a FACT that we will not be able to negotiate anything that we don't choose to. Just remember the key word here is negotiate... that is also a FACT, we will negotiate. Beyond that is speculation and opinion!

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

1) UK economic activity in 2015 - £1,800 billion - £8.5 billion sounds a lot to the man on the street - in national economic terms its peanuts, the 72 billion+ a year some forecasts reckon we may lose annually will swallow that 8.5 in weeks

2) Yeah we'll spend that wisely, wonder if the Tories will use that money in under deprived areas where they get no votes anyway, and again its absolute peanuts

3) We will, not a big deal to me but I quite like Europeans, but if you don't like them vote leave. Oh hang on if we want access to the single market like Norway does we wont be able to restrict them anyway, so you will still be awash with those 'Johnny Turks'

4) What? We cannot employ a doctor from America as a fruit picker from Poland has just got the gig at your local health centre? The New Zealander, Australian and two Americans working in my office have been rumbled, they must be 'Johnny Turks' as well

No I ain't scared of the unknown (I have said before on here it would be exciting and interesting), leaving the EU will fuck up my finances a bit, and cause a lot of issues for my loved ones but I will get by as I am lucky enough to have a skill that people will always want to pay for - but a lot of the people who are being conned into voting leave would be in for an almighty shock when investment stops, businesses leave for EU member states, interest rates shoot up etcetcetcetc..........

Excellent comments....thank you monkfish! Cant believe people dont see that their views on things like border controls etc, are completely unfounded and have no base on reality!

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

And you don´t know what´s going to happen on the way to work tomorrow. The cell door is open; feel free to walk through it. There is a whole world out there.

Your right...but I also know, if I stand in front of a moving bus, its going to run me over!.....

 

[BigJoe#1]

1) UK economic activity in 2015 - £1,800 billion - £8.5 billion sounds a lot to the man on the street - in national economic terms its peanuts, the 72 billion+ a year some forecasts reckon we may lose annually will swallow that 8.5 in weeks

2) Yeah we'll spend that wisely, wonder if the Tories will use that money in under deprived areas where they get no votes anyway, and again its absolute peanuts

3) We will, not a big deal to me but I quite like Europeans, but if you don't like them vote leave. Oh hang on if we want access to the single market like Norway does we wont be able to restrict them anyway, so you will still be awash with those 'Johnny Turks'

4) What? We cannot employ a doctor from America as a fruit picker from Poland has just got the gig at your local health centre? The New Zealander, Australian and two Americans working in my office have been rumbled, they must be 'Johnny Turks' as well

No I ain't scared of the unknown (I have said before on here it would be exciting and interesting), leaving the EU will fuck up my finances a bit, and cause a lot of issues for my loved ones but I will get by as I am lucky enough to have a skill that people will always want to pay for - but a lot of the people who are being conned into voting leave would be in for an almighty shock when investment stops, businesses leave for EU member states, interest rates shoot up etcetcetcetc..........

Your views, valid to you not to everyone though, still you're as entitled to your views as I am to mine?

BTW, What's your take on the pro-remain MPs using their parliamentary majority to ensure we remain I , even if the public vote to leave? I am genuinely interested in your take on that.

 

[smudgedj]

Your right...but I also know, if I stand in front of a moving bus, its going to run me over!.....

Only if the driver is as spiteful and vindictive as you seem to think the EU leadership is otherwise he would apply the brakes and stop.

 

[Metalartin]

I'm getting a bit tired of the authoritarian Brexit regime, talk to some of them(not all but I know of quite a few) and you will quickly find they haven't a foggiest about politics(which is fine) or economics(again also fine) but they pretend they do while subtly revealing the true reason is either Xenophobic and or Race related(which is not fine... the fact that people are hiding this sort of sentiment behind Brexit propaganda/skewed figures).

Also it always seems to be the out camp that are so sure of how things will turn out(there are huge amounts of uncertainty in this, that's what's stopping a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon), the truth is independent bodies have ran the figures, if the out vote wins the first years will hit us quite hard(they are all in agreement on that). We may come out of it stronger in the long run but we can't even be sure of that, but if people are saying well at least we are in control of our own destiny even if we don't come out of it better off then fair enough(I can see there is pride in being independent).

I do think though people are over estimating our might in the grand scheme of things, we aren't a big world force compared to the likes of America or China why are even people pretending that? I also think that the powers that be in the EU will have it in for us for leaving, other countries(aren't there some in France that want to consider the same?) will be watching and they will want to make sure we don't come up trumps out of it regarding the renegotiation's... does common sense tell you we will likely get even 'as good as' deals let alone better ones like I've heard people blindly touting? Personally I think it's a good thing that our government has someone to keep them in check, are people forgetting how useless they can be? Or the fact that North of London is an afterthought as far as funding goes? (at least some of the EU money that comes back goes into projects and organizations outside of the bloody capital, I'd bet the argument of control was the bloody southerners moaning they couldn't funnel it all back to their side of the country).

Voting in personally, big decision yes but an in result wont be a disaster even if thing's aren't perfect and voting out could work out better after a few harder years... could go the other way too.

 

[Bodicoteblue]

I'm not buying this whole 'masters of our own destiny' line. We are not in control of our destiny either in or out of EU. We can influence it, yes, but there are far too many extraneous influences on us to believe we just steer where we like.
A financial shockwave in America hits us - whether we like it or not.
If the price of oil rises - I'm paying more at the pump regardless of who is in charge.
Europe's not particularly wealthy in natural resources, so our collective bargaining is going to become more and more important - and there's a good chance that we might need to find solutions to that by sharing more and more utilities - water, electricity etc.

The utilities in this country are mostly owned to some extent by Europeans (Dutch , Belgians , Germans) or in the case of EdF , by French taxpayers ( as opposed to the British taxpayers , who built the business). Anyone who thinks we can unilaterally take these back ( perhaps we could nationalise them like the Egyptians did with the Suez Canal in the 50's) is deluded. Our water and electricity and gas will be controlled by countries and businesses outside our field of influence.
Someone mentioned Germans exporting cars here. Most of the cars produced in Britain are produced by the Germans and the Japanese , who may suddenly find they no longer have automatic entry to the European market( a potential problem for the Japanese - not a real problem for the Germans ) and may even decide to move production to other countries within the EU, where they will be welcomed with open arms and no tariffs or extra forms to fill. Who knows ?

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Your views, valid to you not to everyone though, still you're as entitled to your views as I am to mine?

BTW, What's your take on the pro-remain MPs using their parliamentary majority to ensure we remain I , even if the public vote to leave? I am genuinely interested in your take on that.

No problem but you asked for facts and they are facts!

The numbers are correct, there is no dispute even from the remain campaign, they like to focus on the £19,500,000,000 that the Leave campaign (stupidly) continuously quote, but the 8,500,000,000 is not disputed. There is arguement that we will have £10,000,000,000 but I prefer to talk to the £8,500,00,00 undisputed figure.

To your point about not being able negotiate withou "freedom of movement". You do not know that, it is not a fact, it's up for grabs. The trade agreements will be negotiated as and when required, again it is not a FACT that we will not be able to negotiate anything that we don't choose to. Just remember the key word here is negotiate... that is also a FACT, we will negotiate. Beyond that is speculation and opinion!

You can bet your house, car and your job that EU are not going to agree anything without "freedom of movement".....I really believe and so do many on both sides that if someone is voting out for this reason then they'd need to rethink what they voting on....

From a Independent report earlier last month.

"Freedom of movement of people is one of the four principles on which the EU single market is founded. The others are free movement of goods, capital and services"

" If we want to have continuing access to the single market, we will, like Norway, have to allow free movement for EU nationals even if we are no longer in the EU. We can only “gain control of our borders” if we leave the single market and its barrier free access to 500,000,000 consumers"

 

[AlgarveBlu]

Your right...but I also know, if I stand in front of a moving bus, its going to run me over!.....

Not if its in reverse ;-)

 

[FanchesterCity]

The utilities in this country are mostly owned to some extent by Europeans (Dutch , Belgians , Germans) or in the case of EdF , by French taxpayers ( as opposed to the British taxpayers , who built the business). Anyone who thinks we can unilaterally take these back ( perhaps we could nationalise them like the Egyptians did with the Suez Canal in the 50's) is deluded. Our water and electricity and gas will be controlled by countries and businesses outside our field of influence.
Someone mentioned Germans exporting cars here. Most of the cars produced in Britain are produced by the Germans and the Japanese , who may suddenly find they no longer have automatic entry to the European market( a potential problem for the Japanese - not a real problem for the Germans ) and may even decide to move production to other countries within the EU, where they will be welcomed with open arms and no tariffs or extra forms to fill. Who knows ?

I agree - we're so intertwined with the rest of the world, there is no 'going it alone' in reality and there is no 'masters of our own destiny'. All we can do is choose our partners wisely - but we need those partners. If we think those partners should be outside the EU, fair enough - but I think we're going to need EU allies in years to come - even if we're often reluctant allies.