EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

Think most Brexiters realise the economy will take a hit, that's not really in depute. question is however,as soon as independence is acquired all those institutions would work towards a better model, if we stay in they will argue that we will defiantly suffer the same in a decreasing EU economy which has been stagnating and slowing for 15 years

The trouble is that "better" model will be lower quality, lower regulated, lower healthcare, lower waged economy so that those orchestrating the Brexit campaign who really want a pre Atlee Britain back . That for me is not better it is backwards and anyone who votes Brexit for the support of jobs , wages etc will be bitterly disappointed . The rich will still stay rich though that's guaranteed

 

[steviemc]

Don't we import more steel products from the EU, than China ?

It's certainly a myth that the British steel industry collapse is due solely to China. EU production (outside of the UK) has had a major impact.

It may or may not come as a surprise that some of the largest beneficiaries from the collapse of British steel are Germany, France and Spain who continue to export to Britain and overseas, whilst at the same time advocating the EU policy of banning countries from bailing out their own struggling companies. Just another example of how we are really 'not' all in this together.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Don't we import more steel products from the EU, than China ?

A LOT more. The reasons why are probably very complex - a steel expert would know more - but I would imagine that one of the reasons is that most of our sales are back to the EU too. The.re might be some agreements in place, plus it might be a defensive measure to stop China flooding us with cheap steel to get a huge market share, kill off our own steel industry then ramp up the prices again

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

It's certainly a myth that the British steel industry collapse is due solely to China. EU production (outside of the UK) has had a major impact.

It may or may not come as a surprise that some of the largest beneficiaries from the collapse of British steel are Germany, France and Spain who continue to export to Britain and overseas, whilst at the same time advocating the EU policy of banning countries from bailing out their own struggling companies. Just another example of how we are really 'not' all in this together.

They also benefit from (over) fishing our seas. Imagine the French and Spanish without their fish and us with a fishing industry again....

 

[steviemc]

A LOT more. The reasons why are probably very complex - a steel expert would know more - but I would imagine that one of the reasons is that most of our sales are back to the EU too. The.re might be some agreements in place, plus it might be a defensive measure to stop China flooding us with cheap steel to get a huge market share, kill off our own steel industry then ramp up the prices again

Germany, France, Italy and Spain are doing exactly what China did. Have a quick look at how much they currently produce for export. Yet we can do nothing about it, as EU policy has made it illegal for Britain to intervene in our own countries affairs. Well done EU.

 

[FanchesterCity]

That Chinese steel is made with good outback iron ore , so when it floods in tariff free , at least you are helping my pension fund. But you don't want to open yourself up to far more productive competition if you want to maintain wages and employment or unless you are prepared for in the short term at least really rough conditions

You'll get me started on another (related) subject!
I think the Western world's had it bloody cushy for a while and like it or not, the cheap labour and products from those 'lesser' (tongue in cheek) nations is going to be an issue for decades to come. We can't just keep expecting high wages and living standards and still be competitive. We can try to drag those countries up to our standards, but the chances are, we're going to have to drop some of our standards along the way too. It's very very difficult to work for £20.00 an hour here when someone will do the same work for £5.00 elsewhere. For now, we probably have better quality and consistency, but I don't know how long we can keep that up for.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

They also benefit from (over) fishing our seas. Imagine the French and Spanish without their fish and us with a fishing industry again....

OK Kevin, but before the EU we were beaten up by Iceland in the Cod Wars. Adding insult to injury, we had to concede 200 kilometres of territorial wanders because the Icelanders threatened to pull out of NATO. Yes that organisation NATO that's done everything for us that the EU can't!!

 

[FanchesterCity]

Germany, France, Italy and Spain are doing exactly what China did. Have a quick look at how much they currently produce for export. Yet we can do nothing about it, as EU policy has made it illegal for Britain to intervene in our own countries affairs. Well done EU.

I'm genuinely curious - not doubting you -
What are they doing that we can't do, and why not?
Are they producing lots of subsidised steel and exporting it? (and why can't we? - not that I'm advocating subsidising industry).

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Germany, France, Italy and Spain are doing exactly what China did. Have a quick look at how much they currently produce for export. Yet we can do nothing about it, as EU policy has made it illegal for Britain to intervene in our own countries affairs. Well done EU.

Well done the UK Government who lobbied for the Chinese not to face increased tariffs! Once we had stuck our head above the parapet, it's always harder to circumvent the rules. Maybe we need to learn lessons from the EU Countries that you listed. What do you think?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Jobs,

His mainly, I presume.

 

[FanchesterCity]

If (huge IF) we are being overfished by our counterparts - is this great nation of ours incapable of prevent it? and will leaving the EU make us capable? What extra patrols will take place to prevent it carrying on, or even getting worse, and who will fund the patrols?

This is the same great nation that's going to go it alone and sock it to everybody remember!

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

Well done the UK Government who lobbied for the Chinese not to face increased tariffs! Once we had stuck our head above the parapet, it's always harder to circumvent the rules. Maybe we need to learn lessons from the EU Countries that you listed. What do you think?

Like I mentioned before though...that's the tories...the fact still remains that the EU can and do tell us what we can and cannot do in our own country

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

OK Kevin, but before the EU we were beaten up by Iceland in the Cod Wars. Adding insult to injury, we had to concede 200 kilometres of territorial wanders because the Icelanders threatened to pull out of NATO. Yes that organisation NATO that's done everything for us that the EU can't!!

Ok but I imagine the uk fishing industry would still like to fish its waters right?

 

[AlgarveBlu]

Italy and Spain! Are you serious?

New data released today from the bbc on attitudes towards the eu in Europe http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36471989 on this current trajectory in 2 years the significant majority will be eurosceptic

The political shifts in Europe should tell you all you need to know about the way we are heading on this one.

I'm not cherry picking. We (the UK) are right in there doing pretty well within the EU. Miraculous given it's broken nature. Germany is doing the same, and France, and Italy, and Holland, and Spain, and Poland and Belgium...

9 of the top 30 economies all within this failed system. Of course there a members not doing too well either (but they weren't doing well before joining either). It's not perfect (far from it).

 

[SWP's back]

Italy and Spain! Are you serious?

New data released today from the bbc on attitudes towards the eu in Europe http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36471989 on this current trajectory in 2 years the significant majority will be eurosceptic

The political shifts in Europe should tell you all you need to know about the way we are heading on this one.

Germany France and Spain will no doubt be following the UK straight out the door of the U.K. Left the EU. Which would immediately ruin every inners argument about not being able to trade.

Each country would look for tariff free trade deals with each other which is what the EU should be.

 

[cibaman]

Italy and Spain! Are you serious?

New data released today from the bbc on attitudes towards the eu in Europe http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36471989 on this current trajectory in 2 years the significant majority will be eurosceptic

The political shifts in Europe should tell you all you need to know about the way we are heading on this one.

That's good! No more "ever increasing union". A chance for the UK to shape the EU more in accordance with our vision of Europe.

I think this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-eu-elites-for-eurosceptic-revolt-and-brexit/ is a very interesting article on how the thinking across the EU is changing. It suggests that the notion that if we stay in the EU we will soon be part of a federal United States of Europe is well wide of the mark.

 

[without a dream]

Germany, France, Italy and Spain are doing exactly what China did. Have a quick look at how much they currently produce for export. Yet we can do nothing about it, as EU policy has made it illegal for Britain to intervene in our own countries affairs. Well done EU.

It's almost entirely down to the Chinese. Their excess production is equal to the whole of the EU's production capacity and they're happy to sell it at a loss which has driven prices down hugely. The government could intervene if they really wanted to but they don't, so it's irrelevant really.

 

[steviemc]

I'm genuinely curious - not doubting you -
What are they doing that we can't do, and why not?
Are they producing lots of subsidised steel and exporting it? (and why can't we? - not that I'm advocating subsidising industry).

Production costs were far lower outside of the UK.

A primary cause was the strength of the Euro against the Pound - we simply couldn't compete. There were smaller issues such as much higher business rates in the UK making profitability more difficult, but ultimately the other EU members chose to do nothing to help British steel. By ensuring it was illegal for us to intervene, the remaining steel producing EU members effectively stuck nails into our coffin, and became beneficiaries from our loss.

 

[FanchesterCity]

The political shifts in Europe should tell you all you need to know about the way we are heading on this one.

I don't doubt the scepticism is on the rise. It's much harder to say if the public perception of the EU is accurate though.
Yes, Portugal, Italy, Spain, Greece and Ireland have suffered, but Italy and Spain's GDP still sees them in the top 11 nations. Poor by EU standards, but not by global standards.
I suppose the million dollar question is - how much worse (or better) would they have been outside the EU? - We'll never know. If we leave the EU though, I am absolutely sure we'll be the measure with which other nations determine the value of the EU. If we fall flat on our face in the next couple of years, then that will probably increase belief that the EU is worthwhile - it will deter others from leaving and Euro cynicism will decline. If we remain in a roughly similar state or better, then it's going to add incredible pressure to the EU to justify how it's benefitting its members and the cynicism will skyrocket.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

That's good! No more "ever increasing union". A chance for the UK to shape the EU more in accordance with our vision of Europe.

I think this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-eu-elites-for-eurosceptic-revolt-and-brexit/ is a very interesting article on how the thinking across the EU is changing. It suggests that the notion that if we stay in the EU we will soon be part of a federal United States of Europe is well wide of the mark.

Thanks but I can't access telegraph links as it says I have to subscribe - I'll be interested to read as I've commented on this before