EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
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I thought Johnson made a very good point when talking about EU initiatives and positions re endangered species(for example)

The U.K. may have a position but if the EU cannot agree on a position then the UK's position would/could not be heard - doesn't sound very democratic to me
 
FanchesterCity said:
I have some sympathy for that view... and think it's true in some cases - although many firms are bypassing immigrants altogether and just outsourcing to India etc.

However...

A LOT of immigrants are doing jobs that many of our own have felt 'beneath' them. Cleaners, clothing sweatshops etc. I've come across plenty of people who simply refuse to contemplate such jobs, and of those that do, their productivity and attitude really has been poor. It pains me to say it, but a great number of immigrants could teach some of our scallies a lesson.

Without doubt there are some employers who will exploit immigrant workers, can't deny it and yes, it can 'undermine' the value of British workers but the truth is a mixture of both circumstances.
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400 plus working in elderly care being told to sign new contracts or fuck off because their bosses have a reservoir of imports to strengthen their arm. These people are already doing the shittier jobs. It's just that now it's more viable to employ a transient workforce and bin off as many of the current T&C's as possible.
There's absolutely no way this strategy would exist if it wasn't for cheap imported labour.
 
Blue Hefner said:
I thought Johnson made a very good point when talking about EU initiatives and positions re endangered species(for example)

The U.K. may have a position but if the EU cannot agree on a position then the UK's position would/could not be heard - doesn't sound very democratic to me
Click to expand...

Very philosophical that, but it's only what we have internally too...
We all vote for a party / leader, those that lose the election (or those voters) lose out in a democratic process. Their voice is then minimised, or not even heard.
Same with a union. If 10% of you don't want to strike (just for instance) but the majority do, then the democratic view of the Union is to strike, and you're objection is overruled.

In that sense, yes, if we have a view, take it to Europe and lose in any vote, then we lose. Same rules for the rest though, sometimes our view is shared by others and we win. Democracy innit?
 
Gaylord du Bois said:
400 plus working in elderly care being told to sign new contracts or fuck off because their bosses have a reservoir of imports to strengthen their arm. These people are already doing the shittier jobs. It's just that now it's more viable to employ a transient workforce and bin off as many of the current T&C's as possible.
There's absolutely no way this strategy would exist if it wasn't for cheap imported labour.
Click to expand...

There is, and it existed LONG before the EU.
I don't deny what you're saying does happen, and it's massive influenced by the availability of labour, but it's always happened. When jobs are scarce, the employer rules, when there's shortage of labour, the employee rules. Supply and demand.

You're saying that the influx is immigrants is artificially inflating the availability of labour right?
 
FanchesterCity said:
Very philosophical that, but it's only what we have internally too...
We all vote for a party / leader, those that lose the election (or those voters) lose out in a democratic process. Their voice is then minimised, or not even heard.
Same with a union. If 10% of you don't want to strike (just for instance) but the majority do, then the democratic view of the Union is to strike, and you're objection is overruled.

In that sense, yes, if we have a view, take it to Europe and lose in any vote, then we lose. Same rules for the rest though, sometimes our view is shared by others and we win. Democracy innit?
Click to expand...

I feel uncomfortable that, as a country, our voice is not heard on whatever the issue is

I appreciate that during a vote like a general election there will be winners and losers but that is a vote of the people not a 'vote' by 20+ different leaders with different agendas, beliefs and circumstances who, no one in this country voted for/against
 
Now Sturgeon.... 'The EU has given us the longest period of peace'.

Fuck it I'll vote remain just incase Ze Germans attack us again
 
Very interesting take on it from Michael Moore, and I know he's a socialist so some will dismiss it, but nice to see what political commentators outside the EU veiw this like.

1min 10 secs in




I think this debate on ITV has taken the arguements no further, both sides have underwhelmed and done nothing to change my mind on the subject.
 
FanchesterCity said:
Very philosophical that, but it's only what we have internally too...
We all vote for a party / leader, those that lose the election (or those voters) lose out in a democratic process. Their voice is then minimised, or not even heard.
Same with a union. If 10% of you don't want to strike (just for instance) but the majority do, then the democratic view of the Union is to strike, and you're objection is overruled.

In that sense, yes, if we have a view, take it to Europe and lose in any vote, then we lose. Same rules for the rest though, sometimes our view is shared by others and we win. Democracy innit?
Click to expand...
Your point about strike action has been rendered obsolete by draconian measures introduced by this parliament. It now requires much, much more than a simple majority to get a strike called. Funnily enough, the same criterion doesn't apply to voting in/out your MP. Heaven forfend that the politicians have to abide by the same rules dished out to those in the workforce.

On this debate, the fact that the very best Labour can put up is Angela Eagles shows how weak the "in" campaign is.
 
Blue Hefner said:
I feel uncomfortable that, as a country, our voice is not heard on whatever the issue is

I appreciate that during a vote like a general election there will be winners and losers but that is a vote of the people not a 'vote' by 20+ different leaders with different agendas, beliefs and circumstances who, no one in this country voted for/against
Click to expand...

It's the same thing on a grander scale though. Those southerners in Kent voting for something without caring about the effects of shipbuilders in the North, or farmers in East Anglia etc.

On the one hand, we probably share a lot similar issues with Germany and possibly France, but the characteristics of Greece are very different to us so it's hard to agree on common policies.
On the other hand though, 'overall' we have an awful lot more in common as Europeans that we do with the Middle East or Africa say, and in that sense, we can act as one 'union' with relatively shared values and needs.

My worry is that with such large economic superpowers as USA and China, individually we'll Germany, France, UK etc will be picked off / bullied. Together we stand half a chance. Right now it feels like a reluctant union with our neighbours, but that it could improve. Even if it doesn't improve, it can still be effective.

Then there's the spectre of increased terrorism too, and I fear we have to unite with our European counterparts to better tackle that too.
 
FanchesterCity said:
There is, and it existed LONG before the EU.
I don't deny what you're saying does happen, and it's massive influenced by the availability of labour, but it's always happened. When jobs are scarce, the employer rules, when there's shortage of labour, the employee rules. Supply and demand.

You're saying that the influx is immigrants is artificially inflating the availability of labour right?
Click to expand...
Yep. Exactly that. It means that local authorities have the ability to set up an in house subsidiary to cover their care criteria. Once it's 'out of house' so to speak they draw on a cheap foreign labour force (and agencies) and use this as a way of undermining and intimidating workers into forgoing their current T&Cs.
 
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