EU referendum

[Tanzeylee]

Like I said you are supporting a movement that is openly using racism and xenophobia to obtain votes and has all of the support from the far. Personally that doesn't sit comfortably with me and I could not support that.

Not fully up on it mate but from what I've read most of the countries in the EU are far more right wing than Britain, and that doesn't sit comfortably with me.

 

[manctheknife]

Like I said you are supporting a movement that is openly using racism and xenophobia to obtain votes and has all of the support from the far. Personally that doesn't sit comfortably with me and I could not support that.

I never thought I'd support anything Graham Stringer endorsed....but here we all are.

 

[BoyBlue_1985]

Like I said you are supporting a movement that is openly using racism and xenophobia to obtain votes and has all of the support from the far. Personally that doesn't sit comfortably with me and I could not support that.

You openly vote for a political party that took the country to war on a lie. That doesn't seem to sit too bad with you

 

[Monkfish]

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• The guy who was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Like I said you are supporting a movement that is openly using racism and xenophobia to obtain votes and has all of the support from the far. Personally that doesn't sit comfortably with me and I could not support that.

its not the entire movement though its individuals in most cases. you could say the remain camp has lots of support from far left movements. it doesnt make everyone voting for leave racist.

 

[Helmet Cole]

I've noticed even on this thread that some people have run out of steam and are just cut and pasting their own posts from pages back ;-)

 

[Gaz in Zurich]

I live in Switzerland and they are doing just fine being not being in it. They even voted recently to pull out of the free movement of people, as they could see no benefit being in it, only negetives.
Everytime I go back to the UK I despair how bad its becoming.
Voting leave is nothing to do with Racism..It's about regaining control and choosing our own destiny (good or bad) like the Swiss do.
We did pretty good before we joined, and can see no reason why the that shouldn't continue.
The only ones to benefit by staying in are the fat cats, and they don't want the gravy train to end.

 

[snorky]

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• The guy who was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

Chegwin and Ike you say.
I'm out for sure now.

 

[inchy14]

So explain this one last thing why does leave have a leaflet telling you that the turks are joining along with a few other eastern European nation. Then show you a map of UK labelled Europe not labelled and Syria and Iraq labelled? This is a mass produced mainstream leaflet not from Farage that clearly screams out beware of the brown people!!

Individuals are using immigration in a negative light not the whole of the leave campaign.

To say all who vote leave are racist or xenophobic is totally wrong and to be frank something you wouldn't say to most people's faces but is easy from behind a keyboard.

You fail to acknowledge the facts that the EU is not great for the whole of Europe and being members has come at a cost to Greece, Portugal Spain etc..
Also all this free movement sounds great but what happens to the afore mentioned countries if the majority of their youth move because they've no jobs? In 10 years time these countries will be in a bigger state than they are currently.

I want out now before we go down a road of no return, what we've got now is not what we signed up to 40 years ago and what you see and think is great now won't be what we'll have 40 years from now.

 

[skiddypants]

They will always let us back in, so it's out for me.
why not give it a try? Nothing to lose.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Zw

Ha, ha, ha.

If joining the Euro was part of the Remain deal, deciding what to vote would be easy: no way do we ever want to go anywhere near abandoning our own currency.

correct! This means that we get nowhere near the top table that Cameron keeps bleating on about that it's important we are. We are not a part of any strategic EU decisions that involve financial investment and commitment because they're all quite correctly geared toward strengthening and underpinning the Euro. There is absolutely no consideration give to the effect any decisions will have on sterling. Everything the EU does is about the Euro, first and foremost, front and centre! The inners need to accept this and then he'll us how we can make a difference!

For as long as this is the case anyone that thinks we are an influencer or shaper in term of the direction the EU is going, is totally deluded.

What Dave has negotiated, but which is highly likely to be rejected after we vote to stay in, if that's what we do, is the worst possible case scenario possible. I can't believe there are so many gullible people that have fallen for it.

If we stay it will all be revealed and unravel pretty quickly!

 

[AlgarveBlu]

I live in Switzerland and they are doing just fine being not being in it. They even voted recently to pull out of the free movement of people, as they could see no benefit being in it, only negetives.
Everytime I go back to the UK I despair how bad its becoming.
Voting leave is nothing to do with Racism..It's about regaining control and choosing our own destiny (good or bad) like the Swiss do.
We did pretty good before we joined, and can see no reason why the that shouldn't continue.
The only ones to benefit by staying in are the fat cats, and they don't want the gravy train to end.

Your not allowed to use examples like Switzerland and Norway because they are highly inconvenient examples of two of the most prosperous nations on earth. It will lead to posts of blah oil, blah banking, a few more blahs and then a couple of but but but they are special.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Your not allowed to use examples like Switzerland and Norway because they are highly inconvenient examples of two of the most prosperous nations on earth. It will lead to posts of blah oil, blah banking, a few more blahs and then a couple of but but but they are special.

But they are atypical nations. That's not to say we couldn't be, but we've not been so for at at least 60 years (arguably much longer). You can't just discount either nation's huge bias towards specific and specialist industries.
If that's the way we want to go - fair enough, but let's specialise in something (financial services?) - but wouldn't fancy tell all the lads currently working on the shop floor that!

 

[mcfc1632]

Ok, is someone able to answer for me: which vote will give the best chance of keeping the NHS state funded and preventing privatisation/poor healthcare?

Or does it really come to that... poor healthcare vs. privatisation? Or will neither prevent privatisation?[/QUOTE]

I did some consultancy for the DH/NHS during the 2012 - 2015 period - intended to inform the new structures, including in preparation for the appointment of Simon Stevens.


Whilst of course everything was very sensitive - and his appointment was kept very 'close to the chest' whilst significant management structure and governance changes were happening and being planned across the NHS, it was clear to me that Simon Stevens was incredibly highly thought of by ministers, especially the Secretary of State, the DH Permanent Secretary and the NHS board. A key factor of his appointment was the knowledge/experience he brought from the US – including the mixed economy models of service over there.


I bring this up because people still look at the NHS as some 'safer/investment/public/private' judgement - this will not be the reality of what will happen.


There is a totally compelling need for the NHS to change - all strategists understand the need for more strategic planning across the Health and Social Services and for the managed integration of the pathways from Acute to community care. Unfortunately the populace generally only see things in terms such as - do not close my A&E etc...


The reason this is important now – for this referendum, is that it is not a question - it really is not - of whether Remain or Leave will better fund the NHS - it is more important which outcome will allow the UK to strategically plan for and implement the changes (that certainly will happen) to NHS service provision in a manner that is focussed on the better quality and value of services to UK citizens.


There will be an increase of Private Sector Service provision - no matter what the outcome - the important thing is that we need to ensure that Simon Stevens can strategically manage the development of the NHS to be a modernised service that keeps as close as possible to what UK citizens want now and into the future.


TTIP is a certainty if we REMAIN and it will be agreed on terms that the EU decide – and not the UK with a view of how we want to develop our strategic services such as the NHS. The NHS will be to an increased extent 'hamstrung' in its options to choose what services are delivered 'in-house' and which ones must be contracted for and how they will be competed - there is a great expectation amongst US providers that they can 'start to feed' soon.


I have very direct and substantial experience of how the UK has 'slavishly' conformed to EU procurement regulations (I have directly managed several large government procurements) whilst other countries do not - and my judgement is that:


a) the NHS is not ‘safe’ in any future outcome from levels of private sector service provision increasing - indeed it is clearly right that there should be the right 'blend' of provision


b) the important thing is to ensure that we are in control of how service development occurs and associated to that how we plan to resource the service. We do need therefore ‘CONTROL’ over immigration to ensure that we can attract/secure the skills that will be increasingly in demand across the world – LEAVE is not against immigration at all – it is the CONTROL of it that is so vital.


Anyway – I will not go into more depth – but your question I felt deserved a proper answer – it is so important to our future. Whilst there certainly are people in the UK better positioned to provide an informed answer I doubt that there are on this forum – if there were I would personally know them I think. I will not speak in more detail of the work that I have done but would be happy (in TH fashion) to provide my credentials to a Mod in confidence.

 

[grunge]

Is this true?

How do Germany and France get money back and we get fuck all other than a big bill?

From doing some digging it's a very selective ( shock ) graph, this seems to the extra that was asked from countries that were doing well after the recession, ours had a good year in comparrison to the others so we were asked for more cash.

Eu membership is based on GDP, so the better you do the more you pay and help out those not doing so well.

It's the entire point of the EU, the stronger economy's help out the weaker to build a bigger stronger Europe. If we stay part of the EU and for what ever reason our gdp takes a hit we will be bolstered by it.

 

[Tanzeylee]

^^^^^^ erm
I live in Switzerland.

;-)

 

[Jim Tolmie's Underpants]

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• The guy who was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

Perfect example of someone who wants people to be told what to think.

BTW - how many of those organizations get funds from the EU? Of course they'd want to say in!

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

I am not wanting to suggest that you are stooping to the depths that some of the REMAINERs on here have - I have found your debating to have been thoughtful and calm. That said I take exception to the first part of your post that I have highlighted. This is because there is an inference that her attacker was acting out of some LEAVE motive - and in this sense I politely suggest that you are in danger of making political gain - which I know that you would not wish t be the case.

Jo had been working with and trumpeting the cause of migrant for a long time and was deeply respected across all political parties for her work - her efforts were not some recent trigger since the referendum was announced. The disgusting and I am sure mentally unbalanced scum that murdered had/has nothing to do with the Leave campaign.

The 2nd part that I have highlighted is because it follows from my post to which you were replying that this 'respectful way' was not in fact what was happening - it was cheap political point scoring which I would have expected you to roundly condemn.

Hi mate......political gain?......the first part of my post clearly said "I disagree with using any terrible, tragic event for political gains" so hopefully that clearly states how I feel....

This is my opinion but I do believe that the timing of what happened could only be linked or have been fueled by, the up coming referendum and the county's increased emotion towards immigration the closer this vote gets......Jo Cox was killed because of her "long term" support for immigration and what that represents across a number of issues "not just the EU vote", otherwise his guy could have killed anyone to send a message... by killing Jo Cox he wanted to send a "political" message which is why he was heard shouting "British First" when he killed her.....sadly, for a lot of people the referendum has become a vote on immigration and nothing else....which is why groups like BNP and British First are voting "out" because they see it as their chance to rid themselves from as many non British people as they can......By supporting "Stay" I believe Tommy Mair targeted Jo Cox, not because of her support for the EU but everything that support represents....(open borders, help for immigrants etc, etc) This whole debate has pushed some people's emotion about immigration to the edge and if you have a group like British First that "hate" anyone that has different views to them, and then add a nutter like Mair that is willing to act on those emotions, I believe its a cocktail for trouble...Saying Jo Cox was killed because she was in support of "stay"? I agree, might not be expressing the full facts of what happened, as its alot more complicated than that.....but if you are asking me to be honest in my opinion, then yes, I do believe she was killed because of her support of immigration, freedom of movement and her love for those different from ourselves and it just so happens that many of those things are being argued in this campaign...and its these arguments that pushed Mair to do what he did....The "timing" of this murder can only be linked the the up coming referendum....Just my opinion and my own very honest personal assessment of what i feel happened...

Just wanted to also confirm...I never said "her efforts were not some recent trigger since the referendum was announced".....and dont believe anyone in the media or on this thread have said otherwise....

 

[grunge]

Your not allowed to use examples like Switzerland and Norway because they are highly inconvenient examples of two of the most prosperous nations on earth. It will lead to posts of blah oil, blah banking, a few more blahs and then a couple of but but but they are special.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Norway Pay into the EU to be part of the EEA, they are paying about half as much as as per capita with no seat at the table or ability to change it and are bound by the same EU rules as the full member states. Norway's system would be to have exactly what we have now with zero say.

Switzerland has never been part of the EU or the EEA so have organically created all the trade deals needed, we dont have that and it would take decades to get it.

the leave camp use these countries as beacons of light when they really shouldnt be.

And as i've said over and over, without any clue as to which direction the government would take on an exit we have no idea what we are getting.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

From doing some digging it's a very selective ( shock ) graph, this seems to the extra that was asked from countries that were doing well after the recession, ours had a good year in comparrison to the others so we were asked for more cash.

Eu membership is based on GDP, so the better you do the more you pay and help out those not doing so well.

It's the entire point of the EU, the stronger economy's help out the weaker to build a bigger stronger Europe. If we stay part of the EU and for what ever reason our gdp takes a hit we will be bolstered by it.

Hang on, that might sound very nice as an aim of the eu but what's the benefit for the uk.

May be it might be better to spend the money on our nhs, roads , areas and towns of underdevelopment , schools etc. So your view is when we do well we don't give the money to the people of the U.K. But rather the people of Poland, Greece and Rumania etc?