Labour / Tory Party meltdown Referendum fallout

Had Labour won the election last year Corbyn would not have become leader, and all the comfortable, middle class, suburban, public sector lefties who paid their £3 to elect him would be quite happy with the Tory-lite Miliband regime, just as they were perfectly happy with the Blair/Brown regime which threw money at them while abandoning the poor.

In an illogical fit of pique and disappointment these pretend socialists elected Corbyn, so making the election of such a moderate government totally impossible and ensuring years of Tory rule.

It is a classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
 
urban genie said:
what biased coverage, in fact farage and nuttalls have been given tonnes of coverage the last 4 years, even when they were just a fringe group, regular spots on political shows, given air time to put their views across, and treated as though they were MP's, more coverage and media time than parties in similar positions like the greens never get. Yes they have had documentries on party members calling them cranks on C4, but everyone gets that done to them in dispatches or panorama.

They have rightly been called out when they have a member come out with some biggotted comment and rightly so, But Nige has has a great ammount of decent amd possitive tv time given to him.
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You must have forgotten all about those leaders' debates before the last election.
 
There was a time that Labour could just about accomodate the differences between the left and right wings of the party but that ended after Thatcher moved the centre of politics so far right that a split eventually became inevitable. Kinnock delayed it temporarily and laid the ground for Blair/Brown but that was, in hindsight, just a temporary situation. So probably the best thing that can happen to Labour is that Corbyn wins resoundingly ending the argument for good.

It increasingly looks to me like the Momentum faction, much like Militant in the 1980's, are more interested in gaining power within the party than within the country. Let them have it and put their pure socialist manifesto to the test, idealism unencumbered by pragmatism without having to appeal to the so-called centre. Then the members and MP's who don't agree should form their own centre-left party which could pitch to the wider electorate (and which could finish off the Lib-Demics).

Of course the Corbyn party will probably get hammered as a few hundred members do not accurately represent a 50,000 strong constituency although they'll never accept it was their policies having little appeal to that wider electorate that was the problem but will blame the media and the Blairites for splitting the vote when they lose but at least they'll have what they want.
 
urmston said:
Had Labour won the election last year Corbyn would not have become leader, and all the comfortable, middle class, suburban, public sector lefties who paid their £3 to elect him would be quite happy with the Tory-lite Miliband regime, just as they were perfectly happy with the Blair/Brown regime which threw money at them while abandoning the poor.

In an illogical fit of pique and disappointment these pretend socialists elected Corbyn, so making the election of such a moderate government totally impossible and ensuring years of Tory rule.

It is a classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Slightly strange analysis Urmston as I thought Blair/ Brown were accused of increasing welfare payments rather than throwing money at the "comfortable,middle class,suburban,public sector lefties"!
It is a pity Red Ed didn't win it though- nice Tory lite policies, still in the EU, big business and the City happy, no economic uncertainty. Happy days.
 
Chancy Termites said:
Did any of posters on here who are now complaining about biased press coverage of Corbyn also complain about biased press coverage of Ukip before the last general election?
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Does that mean I can't complain about the biased press coverage of Corbyn if I didn't complain about the biased press coverage of the Tories at the last general election?
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
There was a time that Labour could just about accomodate the differences between the left and right wings of the party but that ended after Thatcher moved the centre of politics so far right that a split eventually became inevitable. Kinnock delayed it temporarily and laid the ground for Blair/Brown but that was, in hindsight, just a temporary situation. So probably the best thing that can happen to Labour is that Corbyn wins resoundingly ending the argument for good.

It increasingly looks to me like the Momentum faction, much like Militant in the 1980's, are more interested in gaining power within the party than within the country. Let them have it and put their pure socialist manifesto to the test, idealism unencumbered by pragmatism without having to appeal to the so-called centre. Then the members and MP's who don't agree should form their own centre-left party which could pitch to the wider electorate (and which could finish off the Lib-Demics).

Of course the Corbyn party will probably get hammered as a few hundred members do not accurately represent a 50,000 strong constituency although they'll never accept it was their policies having little appeal to that wider electorate that was the problem but will blame the media and the Blairites for splitting the vote when they lose but at least they'll have what they want.
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An excellent summary!
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
There was a time that Labour could just about accomodate the differences between the left and right wings of the party but that ended after Thatcher moved the centre of politics so far right that a split eventually became inevitable. Kinnock delayed it temporarily and laid the ground for Blair/Brown but that was, in hindsight, just a temporary situation. So probably the best thing that can happen to Labour is that Corbyn wins resoundingly ending the argument for good.

It increasingly looks to me like the Momentum faction, much like Militant in the 1980's, are more interested in gaining power within the party than within the country. Let them have it and put their pure socialist manifesto to the test, idealism unencumbered by pragmatism without having to appeal to the so-called centre. Then the members and MP's who don't agree should form their own centre-left party which could pitch to the wider electorate (and which could finish off the Lib-Demics).

Of course the Corbyn party will probably get hammered as a few hundred members do not accurately represent a 50,000 strong constituency although they'll never accept it was their policies having little appeal to that wider electorate that was the problem but will blame the media and the Blairites for splitting the vote when they lose but at least they'll have what they want.
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This is exactly what should happen. The Labour MPs should get behind Corbyn and fight the Tories up to the next General Election, and if it doesn't work they can say 'you've had your chance, now fuck off'. Instead they're just being a bunch of spoilt cunts.
 
malg said:
This is exactly what should happen. The Labour MPs should get behind Corbyn and fight the Tories up to the next General Election, and if it doesn't work they can say 'you've had your chance, now fuck off'. Instead they're just being a bunch of spoilt cunts.
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Yep, what is happening in the Labour party is messy but it is not difficult to understand. If the PLP are so certain they're right, then they should sit in cabinet and love bomb Corbyn with reality, the compromises that would inevitably follow would, if the PLP are correct, destroy the Corbynista cult, based as it is on pure as the driven snow socialism and Bingo! The status quo would return.

But they won't do that and you have to ask yourself why.

When you see Momentum being compared with Militant, the only conclusion one can come to is that the PLP has got at least one thing right and that is its propaganda.
 
malg said:
This is exactly what should happen. The Labour MPs should get behind Corbyn and fight the Tories up to the next General Election, and if it doesn't work they can say 'you've had your chance, now fuck off'. Instead they're just being a bunch of spoilt cunts.
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No - I'm saying have the leadership election then they should leave straight away if they're not happy and let Momentum fight the next election without being encumbered by the Blairites.
 
The perfect fumble said:
When you see Momentum being compared with Militant, the only conclusion one can come to is that the PLP has got at least one thing right and that is its propaganda.
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Jon Lansman was accused many years ago, when he was Benn's henchman, of being happy to engineer a split in the party in order to see it move fully to the left. Hopefully he'll finally get his wish.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
There was a time that Labour could just about accomodate the differences between the left and right wings of the party but that ended after Thatcher moved the centre of politics so far right that a split eventually became inevitable. Kinnock delayed it temporarily and laid the ground for Blair/Brown but that was, in hindsight, just a temporary situation. So probably the best thing that can happen to Labour is that Corbyn wins resoundingly ending the argument for good.

It increasingly looks to me like the Momentum faction, much like Militant in the 1980's, are more interested in gaining power within the party than within the country. Let them have it and put their pure socialist manifesto to the test, idealism unencumbered by pragmatism without having to appeal to the so-called centre. Then the members and MP's who don't agree should form their own centre-left party which could pitch to the wider electorate (and which could finish off the Lib-Demics).

Of course the Corbyn party will probably get hammered as a few hundred members do not accurately represent a 50,000 strong constituency although they'll never accept it was their policies having little appeal to that wider electorate that was the problem but will blame the media and the Blairites for splitting the vote when they lose but at least they'll have what they want.
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You're probably right Colin.
You never know we might end up with a centerest SDLP (Social Democratic & Liberal Party) that unencumbered by socialism is actually electable.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Jon Lansman was accused many years ago, when he was Benn's henchman, of being happy to engineer a split in the party in order to see it move fully to the left. Hopefully he'll finally get his wish.
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One bogeyman does not a party make and certainly not a party split. Anyone who thinks the problems in the Labour party are down to entryism or the odd Trot here and there wants to see it that way. Entryists seek to piggy back on larger parties and movements and use them to their own ends, destroying that party or movement is rather self defeating.

These are the people who want to split the party....

https://www.savinglabour.com/

If you're trying to find those who want to split the party look in the PLP, they've got form on this. It was from the PLP that the Social Democrats were born, it was the PLP that invented New Labour and it is the PLP now that's threatening to split the party yet again, Its in the PLP where the New Labour Blairites are holding out against the rest of the party, and it is they who have precipitated this crisis. Over the last 30 odd years it has been the right in the Labour party that have either split the party and gone off to form another or loathed the party so much they re-invented it in their own image and created New Labour.

This is as obvious as the nose on your face, for decades the right within the Labour party has insisted that the left accept that the right, and only the right, can hold the reins of power and for the most part the left acquiesced, now the positions are reversed the right seeks to split the party, again.
 
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BlueAnorak said:
You're probably right Colin.
You never know we might end up with a centerest SDLP (Social Democratic & Liberal Party) that unencumbered by socialism is actually electable.
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Wouldn't the Lib Dems current reduced state make it extremely difficult for a breakaway Labour party and the Lib Dems to form a partnership? How would a partnership between possibly 100+ Labour MPs and 8 Lib Dems actually be constructed? What roles would the Lib Dems take in the Shadow Cabinet?

The Lib Dems would actually bring quite a lot to a new party if they joined en masse. All of their local councillors and local infrastructure would be invaluable. But would the Lib Dems be prepared to be subsumed into a Labour dominated breakaway party?
 
cibaman said:
Wouldn't the Lib Dems current reduced state make it extremely difficult for a breakaway Labour party and the Lib Dems to form a partnership? How would a partnership between possibly 100+ Labour MPs and 8 Lib Dems actually be constructed? What roles would the Lib Dems take in the Shadow Cabinet?

The Lib Dems would actually bring quite a lot to a new party if they joined en masse. All of their local councillors and local infrastructure would be invaluable. But would the Lib Dems be prepared to be subsumed into a Labour dominated breakaway party?
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All excellent points.
I don't know is the answer - but something has to change if somebody is going to challenge the Tory Party.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
No - I'm saying have the leadership election then they should leave straight away if they're not happy and let Momentum fight the next election without being encumbered by the Blairites.
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They've had their Leadership election and Corbyn won. They've undermined him from the get go, as they just can't get round him winning. They're a bit like the 'Remain' camp. They got beat and can't handle it, so now they want another chance. It doesn't sit well with me, as they're just acting like spoilt cunts. They've given the Tories a free ride. As one Tory said a few weeks ago 'we're the Government and the Opposition'.
 
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