No what I'm pointing out is this a. There are no available replacements better as far as I can see. B. If Pep can (according to you probably) coach average players like Fernando into playing his way, I'm sure he can do it with one of the best keepers in the world. To say we need to replace hart before getting a CB, cf, fullbacks and someone to help aguero out is just ludicrous. Put a decent back four in front of joe and he won't have any problems.
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Marc-Andre ter Stegen
- Thread starter FantasyIreland
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So what are his flaws? Distribution? Pmsl. Is any of what I wrote about his performances for city especially in big games and in Europe wrong? No mate. How much have you even seen of ter Stegen? Nothing I wrote about the likes of bony and Fernando is wrong either mate. Hart has never let city down end of.What makes me chuckle is people so blind to his flaws they make straw men arguments and generalisations which make them look daft.
twoddlehopper
Well-Known Member
Careful now, you've got far to much common sense in that post for the Hart outers to except.No what I'm pointing out is this a. There are no available replacements better as far as I can see. B. If Pep can (according to you probably) coach average players like Fernando into playing his way, I'm sure he can do it with one of the best keepers in the world. To say we need to replace hart before getting a CB, cf, fullbacks and someone to help aguero out is just ludicrous. Put a decent back four in front of joe and he won't have any problems.
mosssideblue
Well-Known Member
No what I'm pointing out is this a. There are no available replacements better as far as I can see. B. If Pep can (according to you probably) coach average players like Fernando into playing his way, I'm sure he can do it with one of the best keepers in the world. To say we need to replace hart before getting a CB, cf, fullbacks and someone to help aguero out is just ludicrous. Put a decent back four in front of joe and he won't have any problems.
But clearly we will have. I'm not knocking Joe as he is a fantastic keeper in the traditional sense. The problem as I see it, is that pep wants more than a traditional keeper as his philosophy starts from the back, and that requires the keeper to be more involved than simply keeping goal. From what we saw yesterday, Joe's instinct is still to lump it out. Willy tried Peps ways but clearly looks uncomfortable and as someone pointed out earlier, of the keepers we have, Gunn looks the most assured in adopting Peps ways.
hartshairgel
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"Never let city down" !! Really ? There have been a few, lets be honest. But for me the priority should be full backs and central midfield. I am surprised Kolarov, Zabaleta, Toure and Fernando are staying but probably because we can't shift. Pointless having a keeper like Ter Stegen if your back four aren't good enough.So what are his flaws? Distribution? Pmsl. Is any of what I wrote about his performances for city especially in big games and in Europe wrong? No mate. How much have you even seen of ter Stegen? Nothing I wrote about the likes of bony and Fernando is wrong either mate. Hart has never let city down end of.
Do you honestly think pep cares more about goal kicks than making saves? I understand he likes to build from the back but he will want a keeper first and foremost. The system requires defenders who can play more than a keeper who can. Hart won't be coming out from the back with the ball aka Pique or Boateng! Do you honestly think that Hart can't if required learn to play a 12 yard pass to a defender from a goal kick? Are you suggesting you'd prefer Gunn to Hart?But clearly we will have. I'm not knocking Joe as he is a fantastic keeper in the traditional sense. The problem as I see it, is that pep wants more than a traditional keeper as his philosophy starts from the back, and that requires the keeper to be more involved than simply keeping goal. From what we saw yesterday, Joe's instinct is still to lump it out. Willy tried Peps ways but clearly looks uncomfortable and as someone pointed out earlier, of the keepers we have, Gunn looks the most assured in adopting Peps ways.
Danny_Johnson4
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Im Sorry but Gunn was poor in pre season, bar the PK shootout. I really want him to do well but ive never seen him look anything other that nervous and jittery, so he certainly isnt more assured than Joe Hart
But people on this thread seem totally oblivious to the fact Hart is clearly not good enough for what we need. Simple. end of. fact.
As good as he has been, he simply cannot do what pep needs a keeper to do..
we have been training ALL pre season for playing across the box at the back, and Harts first 4 touches were atrocious pumps up the field yesterday because he failed or refused to see the easy passes on for him early enough
By the time his brain engaged they were locked off, so he punted the ball up field
One punt gave possession away and thus they went on to score
Again, ideally Hart would be able to perform in this style as hes been such a servant to the club, but he is pretty clearly the main fall guy in this whole revolution as some are calling it, but I for one dont know why this a ter stegen thread because I dont see how on earth we get him out of barca without paying the daft release clause
Its a weird situation, but one we should not have to be talking about 5 days away from the kick off..
But people on this thread seem totally oblivious to the fact Hart is clearly not good enough for what we need. Simple. end of. fact.
As good as he has been, he simply cannot do what pep needs a keeper to do..
we have been training ALL pre season for playing across the box at the back, and Harts first 4 touches were atrocious pumps up the field yesterday because he failed or refused to see the easy passes on for him early enough
By the time his brain engaged they were locked off, so he punted the ball up field
One punt gave possession away and thus they went on to score
Again, ideally Hart would be able to perform in this style as hes been such a servant to the club, but he is pretty clearly the main fall guy in this whole revolution as some are calling it, but I for one dont know why this a ter stegen thread because I dont see how on earth we get him out of barca without paying the daft release clause
Its a weird situation, but one we should not have to be talking about 5 days away from the kick off..
Harts distribution is poor, always has been. He will never be good enough for what Pep wants.Do you honestly think pep cares more about goal kicks than making saves? I understand he likes to build from the back but he will want a keeper first and foremost. The system requires defenders who can play more than a keeper who can. Hart won't be coming out from the back with the ball aka Pique or Boateng! Do you honestly think that Hart can't if required learn to play a 12 yard pass to a defender from a goal kick? Are you suggesting you'd prefer Gunn to Hart?
FanchesterCity
Well-Known Member
i'm not buying this ''he has to play with the ball at his feet' line.
I think Neuer has set an incredible example of it, but most of the world's keepers simply aren't like him, and it's not a prerequisite for success - being a good keeper is.
If Pep doesn't think Joe is good enough, then that's his view, and he'll act accordingly, but I doubt it'll just be down to 'playing from the back'.
It also raises another question about where you draw the line with a player - how soon does a coach decide he's never going to be good enough? how long does a coach actually 'coach' that player before deciding he can do no more? and if he just replaces certain players that don't 'fit' - then is he really coaching, or is he just a manager with a keen eye for talent and enough money to buy the best?
If we are just going to ditch players he doesn't think are up to the job and buy in players that are - then so be it, but let's not call that coaching - it's not.
I think Neuer has set an incredible example of it, but most of the world's keepers simply aren't like him, and it's not a prerequisite for success - being a good keeper is.
If Pep doesn't think Joe is good enough, then that's his view, and he'll act accordingly, but I doubt it'll just be down to 'playing from the back'.
It also raises another question about where you draw the line with a player - how soon does a coach decide he's never going to be good enough? how long does a coach actually 'coach' that player before deciding he can do no more? and if he just replaces certain players that don't 'fit' - then is he really coaching, or is he just a manager with a keen eye for talent and enough money to buy the best?
If we are just going to ditch players he doesn't think are up to the job and buy in players that are - then so be it, but let's not call that coaching - it's not.
mosssideblue
Well-Known Member
Do you honestly think pep cares more about goal kicks than making saves? I understand he likes to build from the back but he will want a keeper first and foremost. The system requires defenders who can play more than a keeper who can. Hart won't be coming out from the back with the ball aka Pique or Boateng! Do you honestly think that Hart can't if required learn to play a 12 yard pass to a defender from a goal kick? Are you suggesting you'd prefer Gunn to Hart?
It doesn't matter what you or I think. From what we have seen in pre season training, pep wants a keeper to be accomplished with the ball at his feet (obviously, he needs to keep the ball out of the net too). From what we have seen in pre season (and appreciate Joe has had minimal time), Gunn is better than Willy and Joe at that aspect of the game. Clearly, Joe is a better traditional keeper that both of them, but whether that is enough for pep to keep Joe this season, who knows.
The fact that we seem to be linked with quality keepers is great for City as it means we are strengthening our position as a squad. If that person Usurps Joe, then it is because pep sees it that way. If Joe develops new skills and keeps his #1 slot, then we have a quality standby. Win win would you agree?
I know Joe is a fans favourite, but we are looking to improve all over. That doesn't make me or others Joe haters, it just means we want to see improvement across the piste
mosssideblue
Well-Known Member
No what I'm pointing out is this a. There are no available replacements better as far as I can see. B. If Pep can (according to you probably) coach average players like Fernando into playing his way, I'm sure he can do it with one of the best keepers in the world. To say we need to replace hart before getting a CB, cf, fullbacks and someone to help aguero out is just ludicrous. Put a decent back four in front of joe and he won't have any problems.
Is that the issue. You are looking at Joe as a traditional keeper, in which case most on here would agree we would be barking at thinking of replacing him
FanchesterCity
Well-Known Member
Nobody should be immune from the chop - if there's a genuine improvement to be made and the opportunity presents itself, then it's worth taking.
However, that doesn't mean we can wield the axe wily nilly only to discover those 'improvements' aren't as good as we thought they were. We'd better be damn sure we're upgrading.
However, that doesn't mean we can wield the axe wily nilly only to discover those 'improvements' aren't as good as we thought they were. We'd better be damn sure we're upgrading.
I honestly think it's in his head - its a mental thing with Joe because he's never been expected to use the ball in this way. I don't think he's confident enough in game play to pick passes under pressure. His first thought is to get rid in the old school style of play. If this can be improved and he realizes that it's the way forward then there's a good chance he can remain our number one.
If not I expect him to be gone.
You could see yesterday he's completely uncomfortable passing out from the back at all. He tried it a few times, but was soon chipping 30m balls into touch or for the fullbacks to try and win in the air.
Unfortunately, for the system to work, the defenders need full confidence in the keeper - they need to not even hesitate when someone is closing them down and he's open- yesterday they did with both keepers, they were trying to avoid passing to them because when the keepers were involved they looked petrified of the ball.
I suspect passing short goes against his entire goalkeeping coaching in England. How many times do we hear "don't mess about with it at the back, just get rid of it"? Sam Allardyce will have a similar approach. All the PL goalkeepers I looked at had an average pass length of at least 38m, so Hart is behaving normally, within the PL. Whether Pep will have to adapt his style to suit the fast pace of the PL remains to be seen. It is much hotter in Spain and therefore less closing down of keepers and defenders? In Germany he had Neuer, possibly the most gifted ballplaying keeper in the world?
Hart seems to be having a blip with his confidence, but I think we would regret rushing him out the door. I don't know if there are any proven better keepers out there who are available.
What does a keeper need to do to be proven? ter Stegen had 4 seasons in the Bundesliga for a midtable club, so he's got tons of experience being in a team which has an "active" goalkeeper, who's constantly saving stuff. kept 36 clean sheets in 108 games which was amazing - and one of the reasons he was so incredibly highly rated.
And now 2 years on he's got 2 seasons at Barcelona, at a club where you need to stay switched on constantly because you might only face a couple of saves, he's won the champions league and the copa del rey, he's kept 20 clean sheets in 47 games.
If that's not proven then you are basically limiting yourself to about 3 goalkeepers in the world being "proven".
Len Rum
Well-Known Member
Distribution is not Joe's only weakness.
He is vulnerable to "daisy cutter" shots low to his left and dealing with crosses needs a lot of improvement.
He has not saved us on numerous occasions as many on here claim.
He had a few good high profile games in Europe ( as well as a couple of poor ones -PG away and BM at home two seasons ago).
He is vulnerable to "daisy cutter" shots low to his left and dealing with crosses needs a lot of improvement.
He has not saved us on numerous occasions as many on here claim.
He had a few good high profile games in Europe ( as well as a couple of poor ones -PG away and BM at home two seasons ago).
BlueRockape
Well-Known Member
Nobody should be immune from the chop - if there's a genuine improvement to be made and the opportunity presents itself, then it's worth taking.
However, that doesn't mean we can wield the axe wily nilly only to discover those 'improvements' aren't as good as we thought they were. We'd better be damn sure we're upgrading.
You can't talk sense on here
Ban ;)
FanchesterCity
Well-Known Member
Equally Joe's been considered the best English keeper for a number of years, and has won the 2 League titles, 2 League cups and 1 FA Cup and 4 x Golden Gloves. He's the international number 1 too.
That ain't too shabby!
Victor Valdes wasn't some amazing keeper with the ball at his feet - but he was good enough for Barca's most successful period in history (under Guardiola).
In my opinion, if Pep doesn't fancy Joe, it's for more reasons than playing out from the back. There were rumours that Pelligrini had doubts too, and Mancini for that matter, and we aren't privy to what's going on behind the scenes. There could be attitude issues, or other problems we're just not aware of.
Of course, I'm not saying any of those reasons ARE the case - merely that I think there's probably more to it than just 'can't play out from the back'.
That ain't too shabby!
Victor Valdes wasn't some amazing keeper with the ball at his feet - but he was good enough for Barca's most successful period in history (under Guardiola).
In my opinion, if Pep doesn't fancy Joe, it's for more reasons than playing out from the back. There were rumours that Pelligrini had doubts too, and Mancini for that matter, and we aren't privy to what's going on behind the scenes. There could be attitude issues, or other problems we're just not aware of.
Of course, I'm not saying any of those reasons ARE the case - merely that I think there's probably more to it than just 'can't play out from the back'.
FanchesterCity
Well-Known Member
You can't talk sense on here
Ban ;)
I can do the nonsense with the best of 'em too! ;-)
BlueRockape
Well-Known Member
Equally Joe's been considered the best English keeper for a number of years, and has won the 2 League titles, 2 League cups and 1 FA Cup and 4 x Golden Gloves. He's the international number 1 too.
That ain't too shabby!
Victor Valdes wasn't some amazing keeper with the ball at his feet - but he was good enough for Barca's most successful period in history (under Guardiola).
In my opinion, if Pep doesn't fancy Joe, it's for more reasons than playing out from the back. There were rumours that Pelligrini had doubts too, and Mancini for that matter, and we aren't privy to what's going on behind the scenes. There could be attitude issues, or other problems we're just not aware of.
Of course, I'm not saying any of those reasons ARE the case - merely that I think there's probably more to it than just 'can't play out from the back'.
There you go again.....you can't do this . :)
twoddlehopper
Well-Known Member
I agree with you in the fact that no one really a knows if Joe will find a new level of footballing skills, I've said in a few post though, I think getting rid of a keeper who's won the golden glove 4 out of the last 6 seasons before he's even given a chance to prove himself is crazy.It doesn't matter what you or I think. From what we have seen in pre season training, pep wants a keeper to be accomplished with the ball at his feet (obviously, he needs to keep the ball out of the net too). From what we have seen in pre season (and appreciate Joe has had minimal time), Gunn is better than Willy and Joe at that aspect of the game. Clearly, Joe is a better traditional keeper that both of them, but whether that is enough for pep to keep Joe this season, who knows.
The fact that we seem to be linked with quality keepers is great for City as it means we are strengthening our position as a squad. If that person Usurps Joe, then it is because pep sees it that way. If Joe develops new skills and keeps his #1 slot, then we have a quality standby. Win win would you agree?
I know Joe is a fans favourite, but we are looking to improve all over. That doesn't make me or others Joe haters, it just means we want to see improvement across the piste
We ain't talking about silva esk passing required here, just a 12-20yrd roll on. I'd also caution anyone sighting last nights game as proof of his short falls, because it was a makeshift defence and the system wasn't exactly flowing majestically around him, they're was rarely more than one option open to him for a pass.
I'd always put more stock in a keeper being able to save than pass, just like I would defender tackling/intercepting over passing and a striker scoring before passing...but then again I ain't Pep, I've got my own sky documentary, Guardiol
I agree with you in the fact that no one really a knows if Joe will find a new level of footballing skills, I've said in a few post though, I think getting rid of a keeper who's won the golden glove 4 out of the last 6 seasons before he's even given a chance to prove himself is crazy.
We ain't talking about silva esk passing required here, just a 12-20yrd roll on. I'd also caution anyone sighting last nights game as proof of his short falls, because it was a makeshift defence and the system wasn't exactly flowing majestically around him, they're was rarely more than one option open to him for a pass.
I'd always put more stock in a keeper being able to save than pass, just like I would defender tackling/intercepting over passing and a striker scoring before passing...but then again I ain't Pep, I've got my own sky documentary, Guardiol
Games are not the only place Joe is going to be evaluated by Guardiola and co. though.
Pep and his assistants have coached a lot of goalkeeper who fit their system - and they'll be comparing Hart to what they are used to seeing every day in their 8 seasons of management. They'll have seen him doing drills with the ball at his feet, they'll have seen how much he's improved in the last 3 weeks and if he's improving fast enough. This is not new to them.
If Hart left tomorrow, it wouldn't mean he's only been given 45 minutes to prove himself.
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