2020 US Elections

[SebastianBlue]

NO!!! WHO WOULD HAVE PREDICTED TH . . .

Oh, right.

I know, none of us saw this com...

Oh wait, it turns most of us in thread said he would likely try to pardon himself.

The only real (rational) debate was whether it would stand up in court when he did it.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

I was thinking , if the 25th is invoked and it fails he again will brag he is untouchable and rabble rouse his base again

25th requires 2/3 majority of the cabinet to vote for removal, although I'm not sure if acting posts are allowed to vote if it came down to it. Also, a point to note is that the 25th Amendment can also be applied as a temporary measure, although in this case with 13 days left it will effectively be a permanent removal.

Essentially, Article II powers (power to sign or veto legislation, command the armed forces (nuclear strike), ask for the written opinion of their Cabinet, convene or adjourn Congress, grant reprieves and pardons, and receive ambassadors) are transferred from POTUS to the next in the line of succession, in this case Pence.

 

[kaz7]

25th requires 2/3 majority of the cabinet to vote for removal, although I'm not sure if acting posts are allowed to vote if it came down to it. Also, a point to note is that the 25th Amendment can also be applied as a temporary measure, although in this case with 13 days left it will effectively be a permanent removal.

Essentially, Article II powers (power to sign or veto legislation, command the armed forces (nuclear strike), ask for the written opinion of their Cabinet, convene or adjourn Congress, grant reprieves and pardons, and receive ambassadors) are transferred from POTUS to the next in the line of succession, in this case Pence.

thanks ,up till yesterday i never thought pence would pardon him, maybe not now but risky , money talks after all

This is tricker than i first thought

 

[domalino]

thanks ,up till yesterday i never thought pence would pardon him, maybe not now but risky , money talks after all

This is tricker than i first thought

He can pardon himself.

A lot of the media talking heads denied this when it was first hinted at, but the closer we've gotten to the end of his term the more serious legal analysts have admitted there's nothing to stop him pardoning himself in the law, and any interpretation challenge would go up to a supreme court that even if they weren't loyal to Trump, their fundamentalist view of the laws would make them come down on the side of presidential power.

 

[SebastianBlue]

25th requires 2/3 majority of the cabinet to vote for removal, although I'm not sure if acting posts are allowed to vote if it came down to it. Also, a point to note is that the 25th Amendment can also be applied as a temporary measure, although in this case with 13 days left it will effectively be a permanent removal.

Essentially, Article II powers (power to sign or veto legislation, command the armed forces (nuclear strike), ask for the written opinion of their Cabinet, convene or adjourn Congress, grant reprieves and pardons, and receive ambassadors) are transferred from POTUS to the next in the line of succession, in this case Pence.

He really needs to be impeached and removed.

It is the only decent, fairly comprehensive remedy, even if it would take a bit longer.

Whether, even after he incited an armed insurrection, there is political will to get it done remains to be seen.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

i guess because they were so heavily outnumbered and it was awful police preparation (which others have said could be Trumps doing)

but there's videos of police fighting back and 4 protesters are dead, so i don't think its fair to say the police openly welcomed these rioters.

The BLM protesters were well behind barricades nowhere near the White House and tear gassed and baton charged before curfew, so Trump could go walk about to a photo op holding a bible outside a church where the local congregation and pastor didn’t particularly want him.

That’s not really comparable to the scenes last night.
Well after curfew the crowd weren’t moved on. They were treated very differently considering half of them had just exited Congress after wreaking havoc.

A Republican congressman was on CNN this afternoon saying he’d known all week that this would happen. He told his staff not to come in that day consequently.
He was still shocked at what actually transpired but exited the chamber and returned to his offices before it happened as he could see it unfolding and escalating on Twitter while he was there. He put the blame squarely on Trump emboldening them.

But the fact is, the threat was known but let happen.
This was not handled the same as other protests.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

He really needs to be impeached and removed.

It is the only decent, fairly comprehensive remedy, even if it would take a bit longer.

Whether, even after he incited an armed insurrection, there is political will to get it done remains to be seen.

It could be done in less than 24 hours with bipartisan agreement. McConnel sets the rules, so in effect he could essentially do a trial without witness if there are enough Republican Senators willing to agree to vote to impeach.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

 

[SebastianBlue]

It could be done in less than 24 hours with bipartisan agreement. McConnel sets the rules, so in effect he could essentially do a trial without witness if there are enough Republican Senators willing to agree to vote to impeach.

That is a ‘streamlined’ version, though, which is very unlikely to happen, even with *relative* bipartisan support at this moment. It would in actuality take longer than invoking the 25th (which would be nearly immediate; it could already be done).

But it is still the better remedy.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

The Republican Party are about to 'go through some things'.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

I often need one of those these days, unfortunately.

And, regarding your second line...

Yes, poor choice of words by me. Sorry.

As for the picture, I think that's a very restrained response.

 

[BlueHammer85]

The BLM protesters were well behind barricades nowhere near the White House and tear gassed and baton charged before curfew, so Trump could go walk about to a photo op holding a bible outside a church where the local congregation and pastor didn’t particularly want him.

That’s not really comparable to the scenes last night.
Well after curfew the crowd weren’t moved on. They were treated very differently considering half of them had just exited Congress after wreaking havoc.

A Republican congressman was on CNN this afternoon saying he’d known all week that this would happen. He told his staff not to come in that day consequently.
He was still shocked at what actually transpired but exited the chamber and returned to his offices before it happened as he could see it unfolding and escalating on Twitter while he was there. He put the blame squarely on Trump emboldening them.

But the fact is, the threat was known but let happen.
This was not handled the same as other protests.

ok. But is that down to Trump ordering the police to let rioters through

or... because the police saw the rioters were white so let them do what they wanted ?

 

[kaz7]

He can pardon himself.

A lot of the media talking heads denied this when it was first hinted at, but the closer we've gotten to the end of his term the more serious legal analysts have admitted there's nothing to stop him pardoning himself in the law, and any interpretation challenge would go up to a supreme court that even if they weren't loyal to Trump, their fundamentalist view of the laws would make them come down on the side of presidential power.

Oh shit

 

[kaz7]

ok. But is that down to Trump ordering the police to let rioters through

or... because the police saw the rioters were white so let them do what they wanted ?

Or shouldnt you keep the contrary shit to football threads

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Oh shit

Even if he does, SDNY can still nail him for tax fraud and other crimes.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Or shouldnt you keep the contrary shit to football threads

It’s not contrary, it’s a discussion I’m having with someone.

Contrary is you on the Covid thread.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

ok. But is that down to Trump ordering the police to let rioters through

or... because the police saw the rioters were white so let them do what they wanted ?

I was wondering this myself. I actually think the police and security services decided it was better to let them run loose a little and maybe have to replace some furniture and carpets than create far right martyrs. There is nothing more the Q anon weirdos would like than global TV coverage of them being oppressed by 'the man'/deep state.

 

[SebastianBlue]

He can pardon himself.

A lot of the media talking heads denied this when it was first hinted at, but the closer we've gotten to the end of his term the more serious legal analysts have admitted there's nothing to stop him pardoning himself in the law, and any interpretation challenge would go up to a supreme court that even if they weren't loyal to Trump, their fundamentalist view of the laws would make them come down on the side of presidential power.

Not every prominent legal analyst, constitutional scholar, or supreme court commentator believe the SC would rule in favour of presidential power in the event of a “blank check” self-pardon, even with their current political/ideological leanings (especially given they have one of the easiest outs available: no prevailing precedent).

I have mused publicly that I worry more about their political leanings than their ideological in that situation, personally, and even I am not sure they would based on various analyses I have read over the past year or so (particularly after yesterday’s events). It really seems to be a six of one, half a dozen of the other situation.

But I think we all agree we are likely about to find out soon enough.

And it still won’t save him from the mountains of non-federal litigation already in progress and to come.

A Smorgasbord of Views on Self-Pardoning

There is no obvious right answer on the validity of self-pardons, and if Trump becomes the first president to pardon himself, a court is unlikely to provide an answer.

www.lawfareblog.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/no-trump-cant-pardon-himself-the-constitution-tells-us-so/2017/07/21/f3445d74-6e49-11e7-b9e2-2056e768a7e5_story.html?utm_term=.50e1c91886cc

Why a Self-Pardon Is Not Constitutional

The 2020 election results are in. Joseph R. Biden, Jr. is the President-Elect of the United States of America. Sometime before January 20, 2021, Donald Trump will recognize the inevitable (even if he may never publicly admit it) and prepare to leave the White House. Given that his tenure in...

www.justsecurity.org

Yes, Donald Trump can pardon himself, but it would be a disastrous idea

A president can pardon anyone — even himself — but that doesn't stop impeachment. Even Trump's lawyer Rudy Giuliani gets that.

www.usatoday.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trump-raffensperger-pardon-prosecute/2021/01/06/a32388fe-4f9d-11eb-bda4-615aaefd0555_story.html

 

[kaz7]

It’s not contrary, it’s a discussion I’m having with someone.

Contrary is you on the Covid thread.

As i said to you in march , that thread is way to serious for settling old scores

 

[SebastianBlue]

Yes, poor choice of words by me. Sorry.

As for the picture, I think that's a very restrained response.

Apologies, Miles, mine was only a self-deprecating joke, I did not mean it to be a snide retort. I’ve made my peace, as it were, so feel free to have it with the banter. :-)