#27 | João Cancelo - 2020/21 Performances

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Dax777 said:
"Walker often bombing forward" disputed your claim that he doesn't get past the half line. "Completed Crossing Stats" are not particularly relevant to that claim. But nice try.

If you want to prove your claim, the stat you want to use is that comparing Walker's average position vis a vis every other Fullback in the league. And see where he ranks.

You'd quickly find your "barely ever crosses the half line" claim ridiculous.

But keep it up :)
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Give over. My original post was regarding the fact that Walker had put in more crosses than our wide forwards. You came back with your condescending drivel about our wide forwards getting into the box and I quote “And our fullbacks are meant to run the line and put in crosses.” I’ve given you the evidence that whilst this might be the idea, it doesn’t actually occur. 18 crosses in 20/21 says it does not happen. Averaging the same number of crosses per game as the Dani Alvez like Wan Bissaka, says it doesn’t happen. Averaging significantly less crosses per game than bottom of the table with 2 points George Baldock says it doesn’t happen.

Now you’ve moved the goalposts by suggesting that my throwaway ‘doesn’t cross the halfway line’ comment was in fact the pertinent point I was making, when you know fine well it wasn’t. But hey, whatever gets you through the day.

Keep it up :)
 
OrigamiNinja said:
Give over. My original post was regarding the fact that Walker had put in more crosses than our wide forwards. You came back with your condescending drivel about our wide forwards getting into the box and I quote “And our fullbacks are meant to run the line and put in crosses.” I’ve given you the evidence that whilst this might be the idea, it doesn’t actually occur. 18 crosses in 20/21 says it does not happen. Averaging the same number of crosses per game as the Dani Alvez like Wan Bissaka, says it doesn’t happen. Averaging significantly less crosses per game than bottom of the table with 2 points George Baldock says it doesn’t happen.

Now you’ve moved the goalposts by suggesting that my throwaway ‘doesn’t cross the halfway line’ comment was in fact the pertinent point I was making, when you know fine well it wasn’t. But hey, whatever gets you through the day.

Keep it up :)
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What? I guess I'm going to have to simplify this for you with pointers:

Your initial post had 2 sentences. Which has 3 points. A main claim and 2 supporting points. The main claim being that 'our wingers play is terrible.'

The support for that claim is thst coz they've put in fewer crosses than our fullback. Then you added an additional qualifier in support that main point, that our fullback barely gets past the half line yet still puts in more crosses. Further highlighting how bad they (our wingers) must be for failing to make as many crosses as a defensive fullback. Are we all covered? Good!

I responded with 2 paragraphs:

Paragraph one states that your main claim that they've been terrible because they've had fewer crosses is incorrect. As that's a function of design. And not the goodness or badness of the wingers. I'm not the only one who has pointed that our by he way.


The 2nd paragraph focuses on the minor claim that Walker is a defensive fullback who barely gets past the half line. Hence the point, if you watch us play he "bombs forward" often. It too was a throwaway bpush back at a throwaway comment.

Your "throwaway" comment as you put it would not change much either way.. I was simply pointing out that if you wanted to focus on my claim about Walker, completed crosses wouldn't be the correct statistical category to use.

I don't shift goalposts. Sorry!
 
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Dax777 said:
What? I guess I'm going to have to simplify this for you with pointers:

Your initial post had 2 sentences. Which has 3 points. A main claim and 2 supporting points. The main claim being that 'our wingers play is terrible.'

The support for that claim is thst coz they've put in fewer crosses than our fullback. Then you added an additional qualifier in support that main point, that our fullback barely gets past the half line yet still puts in more crosses. Further highlighting how bad they (our wingers) must be for failing to make as many crosses as a defensive fullback. Are we all covered? Good!

I responded with 2 paragraphs:

Paragraph one states that your main claim that they've been terrible because they've had fewer crosses is incorrect. As that's a function of design. And not the goodness or badness of the wingers. I'm not the only one who has pointed that our by he way.


The 2nd paragraph focuses on the minor claim that Walker is a defensive fullback who barely gets past the half line. Hence the point, if you watch us play he "bombs forward" often. It too was a throwaway bpush back at a throwaway comment.

Your "throwaway" comment as you put it would not change much either way.. I was simply pointing out that if you wanted to focus on my claim about Walker, completed crosses wouldn't be the correct statistical category to use.

I don't shift goalposts. Sorry!
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Deary me.

Apology accepted.
 
Dax's original point about inverted wingers is correct. With Sterling on left and Mahrez on right, they are primarily cutting inside, while the width and thus more crosses come from the full backs. So comparing crosses made is apples/oranges. Which is not an endorsement of either Sterling or Mahrez, just a technical observation.
 
Some observations:

  1. crossing stats in absolute terms are totally distorting - p90 is better
  2. there is a wide variation in the number of crosses per game- last year for example the lowest in a single game was 0 and the highest was 40. This season the range is 4 in the lowest and 19 in the highest.
  3. there is also a discrepancy in the numbers quoted depending on the data provider or the site used which is probably down to the debate as to the definition of a cross or method of data collection.

I primarily use statsbomb now which has a record of being more robust. FWIW the p90 stats for this seqason are:

2.90 Cancelo
2.85 KDB
1.88 Mahrez
1.79 Mendy
1.75 Torres
1.61 Foden
1.07 Sterling
1.00 Walker

For the purpose of this debate Cancelo is the dog bollocks. Walker isn't (for crossing).
 
Pablo ZZZ Peroni said:
Some observations:

  1. crossing stats in absolute terms are totally distorting - p90 is better
  2. there is a wide variation in the number of crosses per game- last year for example the lowest in a single game was 0 and the highest was 40. This season the range is 4 in the lowest and 19 in the highest.
  3. there is also a discrepancy in the numbers quoted depending on the data provider or the site used which is probably down to the debate as to the definition of a cross or method of data collection.

I primarily use statsbomb now which has a record of being more robust. FWIW the p90 stats for this seqason are:

2.90 Cancelo
2.85 KDB
1.88 Mahrez
1.79 Mendy
1.75 Torres
1.61 Foden
1.07 Sterling
1.00 Walker

For the purpose of this debate Cancelo is the dog bollocks. Walker isn't (for crossing).
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Prefer f22 myself.
 
Pablo ZZZ Peroni said:
Some observations:

  1. crossing stats in absolute terms are totally distorting - p90 is better
  2. there is a wide variation in the number of crosses per game- last year for example the lowest in a single game was 0 and the highest was 40. This season the range is 4 in the lowest and 19 in the highest.
  3. there is also a discrepancy in the numbers quoted depending on the data provider or the site used which is probably down to the debate as to the definition of a cross or method of data collection.

I primarily use statsbomb now which has a record of being more robust. FWIW the p90 stats for this seqason are:

2.90 Cancelo
2.85 KDB
1.88 Mahrez
1.79 Mendy
1.75 Torres
1.61 Foden
1.07 Sterling
1.00 Walker

For the purpose of this debate Cancelo is the dog bollocks. Walker isn't (for crossing).
Click to expand...
The crosses need to be good though. Most of Cancelo’s are Navas standard.

While I feel Cancelo has improved his all-round game with us, very often the last thing he does lacks in quality.

Like I’ve said in Rodri’s thread; don’t give me stats, show me context and quality.

How many crosses were successful? Were there better crossing options on compared to where he crossed it to (a successful cross to someone at the near post marked by two players adds to his stats, but if there was someone free at the back post that makes his cross a poor one)...
Even if the cross was successful, was the cross hit too hard? Or hit too soft (remember the Jesus header against Liverpool? The cross came from Cancelo which was perfect in placement but had no power on it and the angle Jesus ran from meant it was impossible for him to create the power in the header so to score from that was too difficult)?

One of his unsuccessful crosses, which wouldn’t even improve his stats, lead to a goal the other week. He crossed it to the wrong side of the defender to where Torres was running, but the defender fucked up and Torres had a tap-in. But if the defender hadn’t made a mistake, we may have been one defensive mistake away from another draw because of poor crosses like the one he put in.
 
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