6th Richest Country in the World?

[Saddleworth2]

I suppose the problem is circular, we need to goto the markets to borrow but at the same time we need to borrow without the imposition of crazy conditions upon that borrowing but this is impossible.

In a way I suppose it's the equivalent of Accrington Stanley wanting to improve their club by borrowing money to buy Messi and other great players. Nobody is going to lend that money so the club stays shite and that's where we are. The whole credibility rule has arguably meant that we've been imprisoned by our own financial system. The proof is really in the pudding given austerity and 'credibility' has turned everything to shit over the last 20 years.

A good example is the NHS, we know the NHS is broken and it needs money or some sort of change to fix it. If we borrowed £50bn then perhaps that could fix it. That amount however could never be funded through tax increases so how would the markets react to lending? They'd probably bring down Starmer so the government is categorically prevented by external factors from investing in the NHS. Win win for the financiers, terrible for us.

The one thing that Tony Blair did was spend and invest and the country grew. The problem today is the financial climate isn't the same and it's so perilous that the financiers and markets now basically run the country because they control all of the levers.

I don't think any politician has attempted a long term plan that is credible. Markets would respond positively if the plan includes: clear fiscal rules (e.g., borrowing for investment, not day-to-day spending), independent verification from the OBR, a credible path to stabilising debt/GDP over time. This would avoid a repeat of the Truss/Kwarteng debacle which rattled markets by combining tax cuts with uncosted spending.
A great deal more emphasis needs to be put on the National Wealth Fund to drive investment in Infrastructure and Green energy.
The problem is the culture we live in is short term, knee jerk with a deep distrust in any politician. We will continue to decline until that downward spiral is broken.

 

[inbetween]

I don't think any politician has attempted a long term plan that is credible. Markets would respond positively if the plan includes: clear fiscal rules (e.g., borrowing for investment, not day-to-day spending), independent verification from the OBR, a credible path to stabilising debt/GDP over time. This would avoid a repeat of the Truss/Kwarteng debacle which rattled markets by combining tax cuts with uncosted spending.
A great deal more emphasis needs to be put on the National Wealth Fund to drive investment in Infrastructure and Green energy.
The problem is the culture we live in is short term, knee jerk with a deep distrust in any politician. We will continue to decline until that downward spiral is broken.

I thought Starmer might be more Blairesque but it turns out not. It'd be nice to at least see a decent industrial strategy and focused investment to revitialise the regions but I won't hold my breath.

I think Labour are currently just trying to stay afloat whilst drowning in the crapstorm provided by the likes of the Palestine/student activist left and Reform far-right nutters. The rest of us meanwhile are bored out of our brains and it's just the same old.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I thought Starmer might be more Blairesque but it turns out not. It'd be nice to at least see a decent industrial strategy and focused investment to revitialise the regions but I won't hold my breath.

I think Labour are currently just trying to stay afloat whilst drowning in the crapstorm provided by the likes of the Palestine/student activist left and Reform far-right nutters. The rest of us meanwhile are bored out of our brains.

as long as he plays 'wack-a-mole' he and others like him will fail and the UK will fail.

 

[jimharri]

I'd swap with Switzerland to be fair. The only minor problem is that everyone working there earns a mint and everything there costs a mint, so it cancels out. But to move there as a retired person on fixed income, as I am, it would be prohibitively expensive. Beautiful country but just too dear.

Same with Australia, apparently. Great wages, but the cost of living is frightening.

Plus, they all talk funny, innit?

 

[Vic]

If the government introduced a coherent, long-term plan focused on growth, investment, and reform without fiscal recklessness, surely the market reaction would be less negative?

Markets crave three things:

• Credibility – proven commitment to fiscal responsibility.
• Clarity – detailed, realistic plans—not vague slogans.
• Consistency – long-term thinking that survives political cycles.

Truss failed on most of the above.

A UK plan that combined; public investment, targeted tax reform, serious skills policy, planning reform and a stable growth framework, would be more likely to restore investor confidence and make UK equities and infrastructure projects more attractive. As I said earlier, we tinker where what is needed (and the only thing that will work) is a targeted strategic long term plan that is brilliantly communicated to the electorate.

Markets? FTSE 100 up 11% since Labour won the GE, FTSE 250 up 5%...

 

[Saddleworth2]

Markets? FTSE 100 up 11% since Labour won the GE, FTSE 250 up 5%...

And that market growth against the background of a long term coherent fiscal plan that will improve GDP per capita, invest in our failing infrastructure, address the chronic wealth inequality in this country, improve the NHS on a long term basis, drive growth in key industries and eradicate child poverty?

 

[Chippy_boy]

Same with Australia, apparently. Great wages, but the cost of living is frightening.

Plus, they all talk funny, innit?

I love the UK - used to love it even more. But I have to say I think parts of Oz are wonderful. Sydney and Melbourne in particular. I would actually move there in a heartbeat were it not so expensive... and if they had good pubs ;-)

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

I love the UK - used to love it even more. But I have to say I think parts of Oz are wonderful. Sydney and Melbourne in particular. I would actually move there in a heartbeat were it not so expensive... and if they had good pubs ;-)

If it wasn’t for football and music, the two things which are fantastic here, I would have the quit the UK years ago.

 

[Vic]

And that market growth against the background of a long term coherent fiscal plan that will improve GDP per capita, invest in our failing infrastructure, address the chronic wealth inequality in this country, improve the NHS on a long term basis, drive growth in key industries and eradicate child poverty?

That must be one of the furthest moving of goalposts in a long while.

"If the government introduced a coherent, long-term plan focused on growth, investment, and reform without fiscal recklessness, surely the market reaction would be less negative?"

Er, the FTSE 100 is up 11%. How is an 11% increase negative? Perhaps Labour has actually introduced a coherent, long-term plan focused on growth, investment, and reform without fiscal recklessness.

I await the applause.

 

[Saddleworth2]

That must be one of the furthest moving of goalposts in a long while.

"If the government introduced a coherent, long-term plan focused on growth, investment, and reform without fiscal recklessness, surely the market reaction would be less negative?"

Er, the FTSE 100 is up 11%. How is an 11% increase negative? Perhaps Labour has actually introduced a coherent, long-term plan focused on growth, investment, and reform without fiscal recklessness.

I await the applause.

Can you point me to it?

 

[Palerider]

It's complex because not everyone in a given area (or country) is poor. I'm sure there are people in Uganda driving about in very nice cars and owning huge areas of land with numerous cattle. But most Ugandans live on about £30-£40 a year.

Similarly, where I live, there's plenty of evidence of affluence. Lovely cars, smart houses with £1000s being spent on new kitchens, bathrooms and God knows what, restaurants and cafes packed out. But in the same broad community, there are people with fuck all, living off food banks. Now, of course, some of this poverty is self-inflicted, caused by (for example) idleness, poor education and drug habits, but that's not true of all, and anyway the poverty still exists.

How any government solves this, I haven't a clue. What I do know is that having a precarious underclass (often whipped into anger by social media and the newspaper industry) is very bad for social order and cohesion.

I certainly agree that solving the many social issues we have is, realistically, beyond any government of any political persuasion. Certainly in our lifetimes.

On affluence, we all tend to do the same thing. We come into money (anyone ever turned down an inheritance because it's unfair?) and move to a 'better' area where the housing, schools, hospitals, shops, restaurants and facilities are all much, much better. I always find it funny that left leaning people living in affluent areas think they are somehow different to their Daily Mail/Telegraph reading neighbours. How so? As far as I can see most of us are very, very similar bar an aptitude to delude ourselves that we are somehow morally superior!

I suppose in a capitalist society, someone has to be earning and living on below average wages. I tend to agree, I think that is what you are intimating, that if this life of poverty is self inflicted then the level of sympathy from the rest of society is, and probably rightly, greatly diminished. I think most of us believe that anyone who gets their arse out of bed to go to work 48 weeks a year in all weathers fully deserves a decent wage regardless of their job. i.e we somehow, some way need to have a minimum wage that rewards working. I'm not a communist but I do believe that for any society to be successful everybody must contribute what they can dependent on their abilities. I'm quite happy with Labour's attempts to shake up the benefit system and get as many people as possible back into work (that's the only way left wing policies and even communism can possibly work, get everyone contributing).

Apparently we now have 25% of the population classed as disabled (9% in Germany, 6% in France). Clearly a load of bollocks and needs calling out. No country or society can look after it's needy properly when we seem such an easy touch. I went to the Doctors about 10 years ago, first thing the doctor asked me once I had explained my issue was "Do you want signing off?" Clearly wrong, very wrong.

 

[NPBlue]

What standard of living do most people want? As far as I can see most of us are doing just fine. Nearly 34 Million cars are on the road, all those very, very expensive Oasis tickets were sold (to the super rich? I don't think so), Glastonbury, Leeds, Reading festivals sold out. City, with our relatively working class support, have around 36,000 season ticket holders. Many people have multiple holidays per year. Everyone has a mobile phone, tablet, TV etc. Every second shop opened, near me anyway, seems to be a fast food outlet, so a lot of people must be eating 'out'

The report compared our standard of living with other countries in the world and concluded, given we are the 6th richest nation on the planet, most people are not living to a standard commensurate with that.

There will always be people with enough money to buy entertainment, but you are ignoring the many millions of people that are not going on multiple holidays every year or not watching Oasis because they can't afford it.

A significant proportion of working people in the UK rely on universal credit to try and make ends meet, we have record numbers of children living in poverty, eat or heat decisions are an increasing fact of life for many, and food banks are struggling to satisfy demand.

I think most people living with those privations would like a fairer share of the wealth this country possesses, and if you think most people are doing just fine, then think again.

They are not.

We have the largest number of deprived areas in Europe.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

This is quite a good video:



Ignore the thumbnail btw. It's not just slagging off rich people for 15 minutes.

 

[Chippy_boy]

No interest in your views, move on we have no need to discuss things now or in the future l.

Great, another one I can cross off my list.

 

[johnnytapia]

Child poverty is all comparative. Compared to a child dying of hunger in a third world country, they are not living in poverty. Compared to some of their better-off counterparts here in the UK, they are living in poverty. It's sinful the conditions some of our children are expected to endure, there's enough material and reportage out there to confirm this. My girlfriend is a primary school teacher, each Christmas she buys at least three of the children in her year presents, not much, but a bit of something. Because they have nothing. Literally fuck all. I don't remember this being the case when I was a child, and I grew up in a happy but working-class household. So something has gone drastically wrong somewhere.

Most wouldn't begrudge paying more tax if it improved public services and gave more resources to welfare. Myself personally? I could give a fuck if £10 extra came out of my taxes each month to fund this. And many would feel the same. But let's not pretend the ultra-rich, i.e corporations and fans of offshore havens are paying their fair share. Because they're not.

Tax is only fair if it's commensurate across the board.

The reason I’ve given loads of stuff to kids I’ve taught (Ancoats, Gorton, Wythenshawe) is almost exclusively down to shit / non-existent parenting.

 

[hampshireblue]

Great, another one I can cross off my list.

There's nothing like living in a vacuum of no challenge.

 

[johnnytapia]

Well I suppose your fillet steaks would eat into it a bit. We are talking about poverty, not whether the chateaubriand is up to snuff.

Pull together for me a costed shopping list for food for a family of 4 (2 kids) for £100 or less for the week.

ChatGPT said:​

Here’s a costed shopping list for a family of four (2 adults, 2 kids) aiming to feed everyone for a week on £100 or less. This plan focuses on prudent but healthy eating, avoiding processed junk while keeping costs down. It includes breakfasts, lunches, dinners, and snacks.

---

Weekly Shopping List (£97.65 total)​

Category	Item	Quantity	Est. Price
Fresh Produce	Carrots	1.5kg	£1.25
Potatoes	2.5kg	£1.99
Onions	1kg	£0.85
Broccoli	2 heads	£1.60
Apples	6-pack	£1.40
Bananas	6	£1.20
Cucumber	1	£0.70
Tomatoes (salad)	6-pack	£1.25
Peppers (mixed)	3-pack	£1.45
Dairy	Milk (semi-skimmed)	2 × 4 pints	£3.00
Cheddar cheese	400g	£2.50
Butter (or spread)	500g	£1.89
Yoghurts (multi-pack)	6-pack	£1.80
Meat/Fish	Chicken thighs (skinless/bone-in)	1.2kg	£4.50
Minced beef (5–10% fat)	750g	£3.75
Sausages (good quality)	8-pack	£2.50
Tuna (in brine)	4-pack	£3.25
Store Cupboard	Pasta	2 × 500g	£1.20
Rice (long grain)	1kg	£1.25
Baked beans	4-pack	£1.50
Tinned chopped tomatoes	4-pack	£1.80
Lentils (tinned or dried)	1 × 500g/tin	£1.10
Passata	1 × 500g	£0.75
Oats	1kg	£1.30
Flour (plain or self-raising)	1.5kg	£1.15
Stock cubes	1 pack	£0.90
Cooking oil (vegetable/sunflower)	1L	£1.75
Sugar (for porridge & baking)	1kg	£1.00
Tea bags	80-pack	£1.30
Coffee (basic instant)	100g	£1.60
Bread/Cereal	Wholemeal bread	2 loaves	£2.10
Cereal (cornflakes or similar)	750g	£1.30
Frozen	Frozen mixed vegetables	1kg	£1.40
Frozen peas	1kg	£1.30
Frozen fish fingers	10-pack	£2.40
Oven chips	1.5kg	£1.80
Extras	Eggs (medium, free-range)	12	£2.30
Biscuits (digestives or similar)	400g	£0.75
Jam or peanut butter	340–454g	£1.25

---

Total: £97.65​

Rounded prices based on average UK supermarket own-brand options (e.g. Aldi, Lidl, Asda, Tesco).

I’d rather spend £101 and have tuna in spring water.

 

[johnnytapia]

View attachment 164390

AKA a ten foot Brucey

 

[johnnytapia]

I love the UK - used to love it even more. But I have to say I think parts of Oz are wonderful. Sydney and Melbourne in particular. I would actually move there in a heartbeat were it not so expensive... and if they had good pubs ;-)

And fewer snakes.

 

[hilts]

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