737-8 max plane goes down (2018) - new not Max crash Indonesia

flyer said:
Ryanair has just upped its order for the MAX to 210 planes due for delivery between now and December 2024
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That's a bold step. If, god forbid, there is another serious incident with the max it will shatter customers confidence in the plane and they will avoid it at all costs. Ryanair bookings will collapse. But Michael O'Leary is the business man and not me so I guess he knows what he is doing.
 
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The sly wankers are not labelling them as a Max.Still a Max but using 8200 as the 8 the Max model and the 200 is how many seat are onboard the aircraft.
 
RadcliffeRick said:
That's a bold step. If, god forbid, there is another serious incident with the max it will shatter customers confidence in the plane and they will avoid it at all costs. Ryanair bookings will collapse. But Michael O'Leary is the business man and not me so I guess he knows what he is doing.
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God knows if there will be any air travel in the future the way it's going so it's a bold move ordering new ones, never mind this one. Personally I'm avoiding it at all cost and if that means playing more on another airline I'll do it.
 
RadcliffeRick said:
That's a bold step. If, god forbid, there is another serious incident with the max it will shatter customers confidence in the plane and they will avoid it at all costs. Ryanair bookings will collapse. But Michael O'Leary is the business man and not me so I guess he knows what he is doing.
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Think of the discount he'll be getting on each plane.

Plus, If and it's still a big if, the plane has been tested more than any other plane in existance and been given the all clear to fly then there really shouldn't be any problem compared to any other type of jet.

And no, I f**king won't be flying on them any time soon!!
 
west didsblue said:
I'm interested in what our pilot members think of this.
@ChicagoBlue ?
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Pilots are like Manchester football fans, one camp (Airbus or Boeing) or the other. In my limited experience it is difficult to find a pilot who is totally impartial. Having said that I would be interested in @ChicagoBlue take on these comments
 
west didsblue said:
I'm interested in what our pilot members think of this.
@ChicagoBlue ?
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I’m literally doing my MAX training right now.

I flew it before we knew about MCAS, and I’ll fly it again now we know all about it.

It’s a very nice airplane to fly. That said, a clean sheet approach would have been FAR better instead of Frankenstein-ing it so it could be a 737 type and NOT require a new type rating for pilots.

The fact that MCAS was hidden, and the problems were known and ignored, was a business risk decision that blew up in Boeing’s face and they deserve every penalty they receive for that. However, it’s not going to stop me from flying the MAX, even though I could literally fly any other aircraft at my airline (B757, 767, 777, 787, A320) if I chose to do so.

The 787 is the darling of global aviation, due to its efficiency and highly positive passenger feedback. Do you read much about the ongoing problems with that aircraft? News du jour...

FWIW, the A320 is a much more comfortable workspace, and systems overhead layout, but I like flying the 737 more. I’m absolutely NOT a “If it’s not Boeing, I’m not going” pilot, but there have been enough high profile Airbus accidents and no one seems to decry them.... anymore!

When you crash your new model at the air show fly-by to announce it to the world...???!!!

Or have one fall out of the sky (from high altitude!) because one pilot had no idea what the other one was doing, and what he was doing was the exact opposite of what he should have been doing, but he was completely overwhelmed by dings, horns, lights, and displays...well, I’d say there are foibles on most aircraft that pilots learn to live with.

My biggest problem with the MAX is that it has been overstretched and HAS TO use some bastardized procedures to squeeze it into the “737 Type” pigeonhole.

It will have tailstrike problems and the engines are a brand new variant. That’s sometimes not optimal for any aircraft, due to teething problems with some engines.

Every day is a new adventure, but my bottom line is “If i don’t think it’s safe, I’m not going!” and I don’t know care what ANYONE says...FAA, Company, Chief Pilot, ANYBODY!! I’ve turned down aircraft I have been “politely and firmly asked” to fly before, and I’d do it again IF I thought it wasn’t safe.

I absolutely DO NOT think the 737 MAX is unsafe...now that I understand what it MIGHT try to do, and the trigger for that has been reduced to almost infinitesimally small, IMHO, and I have the tools to remove and correct that microscopic potential outcome.
 
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paulchapo said:
God knows if there will be any air travel in the future the way it's going so it's a bold move ordering new ones, never mind this one. Personally I'm avoiding it at all cost and if that means playing more on another airline I'll do it.
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Fly on it and use the savings to buy extra accident insurance! ;-) Your family will love you for it!
 
ChicagoBlue said:
I’m literally doing my MAX training right now.

I flew it before we knew about MCAS, and I’ll fly it again now we know all about it.

It’s a very nice airplane to fly. That said, a clean sheet approach would have been FAR better instead of Frankenstein-ing it so it could be a 737 type and NOT require a new type rating for pilots.

The fact that MCAS was hidden, and the problems were known and ignored, was a business risk decision that blew up in Boeing’s face and they deserve every penalty they receive for that. However, it’s not going to stop me from flying the MAX, even though I could literally fly any other aircraft at my airline (B757, 767, 777, 787, A320) if I chose to do so.

The 787 is the darling of global aviation, due to its efficiency and highly positive passenger feedback. Do you read much about the problems with that aircraft? News du jour...
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Thanks for that.
I work in the industry and I’m very familiar with the relationship between manufacturer and regulator in the UK so I would be reasonably confident that the appropriate scrutiny is applied to any aircraft modification. The relationship between Boeing and the FAA seemed to be too cosy and appeared to be part of the reason that this problem was not identified during the certification process in the first place. Are you confident that this has been addressed and that the regulator is now doing what it’s supposed to do and is sufficiently independent?
 
paulchapo said:
I think my family value me more than the money thanks
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Hence the smiley face, about something I think is a slight overreaction.

BTW, people don’t buy travel insurance because they think they’re going to die or because they think their family would prefer the money to them having a safe flight!
 
ChicagoBlue said:
Hence the smiley face, about something I think is a slight overreaction.

BTW, people don’t buy travel insurance because they think they’re going to die or because they think their family would prefer the money to them having a safe flight!
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You can think it's an overreaction, I don't. We all have a choice and I certainly will be in no rush to board one of these planes anytime soon. Not that we will have that choice for quite some time I believe

Erm I'm perfectly knowledge why people buy travel insurance thanks.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
The 787 is the darling of global aviation, due to its efficiency and highly positive passenger feedback. Do you read much about the ongoing problems with that aircraft? News du jour...
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If anyone has used TUI for long haul then they will be familiar with this wonderful aircraft. Has to be one of the most comfortable I have flown on and known over here in UK land as a Dreamliner complete with mood lighting larger windows and an ohh so quite cabin.

A Dreamliner and 25 reasons to fly it.





Fleet facts | About BA | British Airways

Information about the British Airways fleet of aircraft.
www.britishairways.com www.britishairways.com


Anyway...

It's important to note one very big difference between the 787 Dreamliner and 737 Max lines. Unlike the Max, since its introduction in 2009, no Dreamliner has ever been involved in a crash or serious accident. However, the entire line was grounded for just over three months in 2013 due to design issues surrounding its lithium-ion battery and battery compartment. Those issues caused a fire during a Japan Airlines flight, and an earlier fire in an All Nippon Airways plane while it sat on the runway after passengers had disembarked. Boeing made some modifications to the battery system and the Dreamliners resumed flying.
 
hampshireblue said:
No, all of the B757s have been retired. Oldest aircraft in their fleet is around 22 years old with many more having been delivered new in the 3 to 5 years.
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Jet2 have not retired their 757 fleet. They've binned almost all the old 737 classics but the 757s are still going strong (and are lovely aircraft!)
 
west didsblue said:
Thanks for that.
I work in the industry and I’m very familiar with the relationship between manufacturer and regulator in the UK so I would be reasonably confident that the appropriate scrutiny is applied to any aircraft modification. The relationship between Boeing and the FAA seemed to be too cosy and appeared to be part of the reason that this problem was not identified during the certification process in the first place. Are you confident that this has been addressed and that the regulator is now doing what it’s supposed to do and is sufficiently independent?
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I agree that “self certification of safety compliance” is the height of “cozy,” and borders on negligence of the oversight function. Both places (Boeing and the FAA) have been gutted of their engineering expertise because engineers are very, very expensive...especially those with the very specific expertise required...and the “what could go do wrong it could cost more than we are saving” business mentality that has blown up in their faces.

In general, I think the checks and balances were just fine. In this particular instance, you had Boeing designing a system to fix one of the Frankenstein problems that came from the “old type, new aircraft” problem. That system SHOULD have been made transparent and open, but Boeing feared it would require simulator training. SOUTHWEST AIRLINES has driven B737 development for years, as the world’s largest owner-operator, which is why the overhead panel is circa 1960 and so few “automatic” update options from newer aircraft are allowed into the aircraft. SWA wanted it to be a “no sim, minimal CBT time” aircraft. Boeing employees, seeking to allay customer fears, did that by hiding this brand new flight control system from airlines and giving it short shrift with regulators. In short, Boeing pilots and engineers lied about what it was and how powerful it might be.

I think THAT problem has been fixed to everyone’s satisfaction (no more single source input, other protections such as one time activation that can be overridden, new complete procedures, etc.) but the wider problem of that “cozy” relationship is a bigger issue.

Boeing has been pushing more and more output towards South Carolina and away from its tradition roots in the Seattle, WA area due to “more favorable business environment.” In short, non-union labor. Not many people (as in experienced engineers and fabricators with decades of expertise) have made that move. Accordingly, the first wave of 787s made down there are literally UNAIRWORTHY, and thus unflyable! Instead, they’re in museums and such.

THAT problem...loss of expertise and experience, coupled with a profit-driven imperative over the previous engineering excellence motivation, is a problem I’m not sure Boeing will ever overcome.
 
davealvers said:
Jet2 have not retired their 757 fleet. They've binned almost all the old 737 classics but the 757s are still going strong (and are lovely aircraft!)
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You must be skinny! They have the narrowest seat in the industry!

BUT, it’s one of my favorite aircraft, too, even if “still going strong” might be a little hyperbolic. That production line was shutdown years ago.
 
Two Gun Bob said:
Boeing made some modifications to the battery system and the Dreamliners resumed flying.
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I love that sentence. Makes it all sound like a non event...kinda like “Boeing made some modifications to MCAS and the MAX resumed flying.”

What would have happened if those battery fires would have happened over open oceans, which is where the Dreamliner was built to fly?

Don’t get me wrong, on the ground is my FAVORITE place for things to go wrong with aircraft, too, especially fire, which scares me more than anything else in aviation!
 
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