737-8 max plane goes down (2018) - new not Max crash Indonesia

[west didsblue]

I agree that “self certification of safety compliance” is the height of “cozy,” and borders on negligence of the oversight function. Both places (Boeing and the FAA) have been gutted of their engineering expertise because engineers are very, very expensive...especially those with the very specific expertise required...and the “what could go do wrong it could cost more than we are saving” business mentality that has blown up in their faces.

In general, I think the checks and balances were just fine. In this particular instance, you had Boeing designing a system to fix one of the Frankenstein problems that came from the “old type, new aircraft” problem. That system SHOULD have been made transparent and open, but Boeing feared it would require simulator training. SOUTHWEST AIRLINES has driven B737 development for years, as the world’s largest owner-operator, which is why the overhead panel is circa 1960 and so few “automatic” update options from newer aircraft are allowed into the aircraft. SWA wanted it to be a “no sim, minimal CBT time” aircraft. Boeing employees, seeking to allay customer fears, did that by hiding this brand new flight control system from airlines and giving it short shrift with regulators. In short, Boeing pilots and engineers lied about what it was and how powerful it might be.

I think THAT problem has been fixed to everyone’s satisfaction (no more single source input, other protections such as one time activation that can be overridden, new complete procedures, etc.) but the wider problem of that “cozy” relationship is a bigger issue.

Boeing has been pushing more and more output towards South Carolina and away from its tradition roots in the Seattle, WA area due to “more favorable business environment.” In short, non-union labor. Not many people (as in experienced engineers and fabricators with decades of expertise) have made that move. Accordingly, the first wave of 787s made down there are literally UNAIRWORTHY, and thus unflyable! Instead, they’re in museums and such.

THAT problem...loss of expertise and experience, coupled with a profit-driven imperative over the previous engineering excellence motivation, is a problem I’m not sure Boeing will ever overcome.

Thanks for that. It doesn’t fill me with great confidence flying on Boeing aircraft though!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

You can think it's an overreaction, I don't. We all have a choice and I certainly will be in no rush to board one of these planes anytime soon. Not that we will have that choice for quite some time I believe

Erm I'm perfectly knowledge why people buy travel insurance thanks.

I see lighthearted banter not a big thing for you today. Later.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Thanks for that. It doesn’t fill me with great confidence flying on Boeing aircraft though!

Just fly in the old ones!! HAHA!!

One thing about aviation is that it is SO unforgiving, problems are often evident very early in the process.

Lastly, Boeing is living under a microscope right now (and long may it last), so I don’t know think they’ll be trying to cut any corners anytime soon.

As for the MAX, it is now the MOST HEAVILY SCRUTINIZED COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT EVER BUILT. If that’s not comforting, what is?!

 

[paulchapo]

I see lighthearted banter not a big thing for you today. Later.

No your post was pretty poor and in bad taste, but that's just my opinion, as it was directed at me though I think I'm entitled to take that view.

It then descended into becoming a tad patronising. Oh and yes today isn't a good day for banter as you call it, but I wouldn't have found it funny if it wasn't.

Much later.

 

[Toney’s bookie]

You must be skinny! They have the narrowest seat in the industry!

BUT, it’s one of my favorite aircraft, too, even if “still going strong” might be a little hyperbolic. That production line was shutdown years ago.

Haha I am skinny actually but was in fact referring to its looks rather than cabin config. However, interestingly the much vaunted 787 at 3-3-3 config has a max seat width of 17 Inches whilst most remaining UK operators have 17.2 inch width seats on the 757. If you read frequent flyer forums the 787 is pretty recognised as being dire in economy for longhaul comfort, similar to a 777 in 3-4-3 down the back. Of course the benefit of the 787 is not necessarily the seat but the lower cabin altitude and humidity and it clearly does make a positive impact on pax perceptions.

I've never been a fan of the 737 in honesty although have never flown it myself (one of my mates used to fly it and is never particularly complimentary) and agree that Boeing should really have clean slated a new narrowbody aircraft years ago. Hence they were left chasing the Airbus NEOs so rolled the 737 in more glitter.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

No your post was pretty poor and in bad taste, but that's just my opinion, as it was directed at me though I think I'm entitled to take that view.

It then descended into becoming a tad patronising. Oh and yes today isn't a good day for banter as you call it, but I wouldn't have found it funny if it wasn't.

Much later.

Good luck avoiding the MAX if and when you go flying in the future. Blues skies and tailwinds.

 

[west didsblue]

Just fly in the old ones!! HAHA!!

One thing about aviation is that it is SO unforgiving, problems are often evident very early in the process.

Lastly, Boeing is living under a microscope right now (and long may it last), so I don’t know think they’ll be trying to cut any corners anytime soon.

As for the MAX, it is now the MOST HEAVILY SCRUTINIZED COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT EVER BUILT. If that’s not comforting, what is?!

Fair point with your last paragraph.

Regarding old aircraft, in reality an assessment of accident figures shows that the newer aircraft types have much lower accident rates than the older ones. I did an analysis of hull loss rates for different types a few years ago and there really is no comparison between old and new.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Haha I am skinny actually but was in fact referring to its looks rather than cabin config. However, interestingly the much vaunted 787 at 3-3-3 config has a max seat width of 17 Inches whilst most remaining UK operators have 17.2 inch width seats on the 757. If you read frequent flyer forums the 787 is pretty recognised as being dire in economy for longhaul comfort, similar to a 777 in 3-4-3 down the back. Of course the benefit of the 787 is not necessarily the seat but the lower cabin altitude and humidity and it clearly does make a positive impact on pax perceptions.

I've never been a fan of the 737 in honesty although have never flown it myself (one of my mates used to fly it and is never particularly complimentary) and agree that Boeing should really have clean slated a new narrowbody aircraft years ago. Hence they were left chasing the Airbus NEOs so rolled the 737 in more glitter.

Cute nose, long skinny legs, big hooters, long skinny body, tight ass.

I can see why you like the 757!

I like it because it flies like a sports car, gets to altitude quickly and has a large enough (push button) cockpit to be considered comfortable. Those big hooters can cause a problem on landing, though, as if you go into reverse thrust with the nose in the air, there is so much reverse thrust it pops the nose up! Consequently, as you land and go into reverse, you actually have to remove back pressure and push the nose down to counter it!

Flown that aircraft for two separate stints and loved it. Too bad it’s headed to the can factory in the years ahead, as it could have been the basis for the new MOTM aircraft the MAX and 321NEO are pretending to be.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Fair point with your last paragraph.

Regarding old aircraft, in reality an assessment of accident figures shows that the newer aircraft types have much lower accident rates than the older ones. I did an analysis of hull loss rates for different types a few years ago and there really is no comparison between old and new.

That seems obvious if you stop to think about it, but I’m glad you are quoting actual research. Always carries much more weight than anecdotes. Indeed, cycles are NOT your friend in a fatigue business.

I was more making the joke about concerns with the newer aircraft models and their teething troubles that hit the headlines...although MCAS wasn’t just a teething trouble problem!

Old and new are relative terms when it comes to aircraft, with the former often running into a long lifetime!

 

[Two Gun Bob]

I love that sentence. Makes it all sound like a non event...kinda like “Boeing made some modifications to MCAS and the MAX resumed flying.”

What would have happened if those battery fires would have happened over open oceans, which is where the Dreamliner was built to fly?

Don’t get me wrong, on the ground is my FAVORITE place for things to go wrong with aircraft, too, especially fire, which scares me more than anything else in aviation!

It was an event mate which is why they were grounded.. The Dream-liner however did not crash and claim the lives of hundreds of people. In my minds eye that makes the Dream-liner a good aircraft and the Max a bad aircraft.

O'Leary may be getting massive discounts with his ongoing purchase of the Max but it's one hell of a gamble. For us we wont be traveling on a Max regardless of price anytime soon. Two aircraft hurtling aimlessly to the ground causing catastophic loss of life .. and for that reason as consumers were out !

As a matter of interest Tui who will use the Max say they will let us know what aircraft we are to fly on in the future as they do with their 787 series. Ryanair say they will not divulge this information. Good luck Michael with your business model.

We all eventually have to leave this spinning sphere, but I would sooner be crucified, garotted, hung drawn and quartered or boiled alive in a bucket-full of my own piss than spend 3 minutes of my life screaming the tits off upside down in a cylindrical sphere hurtling and twisting down toward mother earth and imminent doom!

We are very good with disaster documentaries and can normally between the two of work out the problem before the NTSB even get involved.. It's flaps love, flaps and the cabbage hasn't set them! ..No Bob no your wrong lad..they have their weight calculi all wrong ...

I do know one thing and that is that we have to fly to get away from the kiss me quick hats and cheesy holiday spots of the UK, but I do not ever want to go down in a dodgy one. Fly in the day time, dont fly in adverse weather and use a good airline and your three quarters way to licking that cornet on the other side! I think pilots are heroes and we still to this day clap if we land safely.

 

[west didsblue]

That seems obvious if you stop to think about it, but I’m glad you are quoting actual research. Always carries much more weight than anecdotes. Indeed, cycles are NOT your friend in a fatigue business.

I was more making the joke about concerns with the newer aircraft models and their teething troubles that hit the headlines...although MCAS wasn’t just a teething trouble problem!

Old and new are relative terms when it comes to aircraft, with the former often running into a long lifetime!

I wasn’t really talking about accidents due to fatigue and lifing issues. Modern aircraft are immeasurably safer than older ones even when you compare accident rates from when the old ones were new. Again I guess that’s quite obvious due to the way the industry learns from every single accident and implements changes to address any shortcomings.

The problem, as has happened with the MAX, is when the problem is beyond simply solving technical issues and when profit and politics get in the way of safety management, and the consequent loss of trust by the public. Boeing will take a long time to get their reputation back.

 

[Two Gun Bob]

It's just not natural flying along in a cylindrical coffin!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I wasn’t really talking about accidents due to fatigue and lifing issues. Modern aircraft are immeasurably safer than older ones even when you compare accident rates from when the old ones were new. Again I guess that’s quite obvious due to the way the industry learns from every single accident and implements changes to address any shortcomings.

The problem, as has happened with the MAX, is when the problem is beyond simply solving technical issues and when profit and politics get in the way of safety management, and the consequent loss of trust by the public. Boeing will take a long time to get their reputation back.

Indeed. My apologies for glossing over that aspect.

In the airline industry, we are used to the “Ill NEVER fly XXXXX again!” as it usually lasts as long as the next internet search and discovery of the cheapest price.

Boeing has already suffered massively, and rightfully so, but the Defence part of their business is currently holding up the company, and stock price.

In about 24 months, I expect both to have been on the upswing.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

It was an event mate which is why they were grounded.. The Dream-liner however did not crash and claim the lives of hundreds of people. In my minds eye that makes the Dream-liner a good aircraft and the Max a bad aircraft.

O'Leary may be getting massive discounts with his ongoing purchase of the Max but it's one hell of a gamble. For us we wont be traveling on a Max regardless of price anytime soon. Two aircraft hurtling aimlessly to the ground causing catastophic loss of life .. and for that reason as consumers were out !

As a matter of interest Tui who will use the Max say they will let us know what aircraft we are to fly on in the future as they do with their 787 series. Ryanair say they will not divulge this information. Good luck Michael with your business model.

We all eventually have to leave this spinning sphere, but I would sooner be crucified, garotted, hung drawn and quartered or boiled alive in a bucket-full of my own piss than spend 3 minutes of my life screaming the tits off upside down in a cylindrical sphere hurtling and twisting down toward mother earth and imminent doom!

We are very good with disaster documentaries and can normally between the two of work out the problem before the NTSB even get involved.. It's flaps love, flaps and the cabbage hasn't set them! ..No Bob no your wrong lad..they have their weight calculi all wrong ...

I do know one thing and that is that we have to fly to get away from the kiss me quick hats and cheesy holiday spots of the UK, but I do not ever want to go down in a dodgy one. Fly in the day time, dont fly in adverse weather and use a good airline and your three quarters way to licking that cornet on the other side! I think pilots are heroes and we still to this day clap if we land safely.

Easyjet or Jet 2 only for me.

 

[Two Gun Bob]

Easyjet or Jet 2 only for me.

Only this Denis. Jet 2 may have older planes but an excellent safety record. Easyjet are a quality company with lots of little extras.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

I know a Jet2 director.
They will not be buying the MAX.

 

[hampshireblue]

Jet2 have not retired their 757 fleet. They've binned almost all the old 737 classics but the 757s are still going strong (and are lovely aircraft!)

Apologies,they actually have one B757 listed as active. It's their "newest" one in term of years since built at 27. The rest are stored at either Murcia or Kemble. Many are over 30 years old so highly unlikely they will ever fly commercially again.

 

[Toney’s bookie]

Apologies,they actually have one B757 listed as active. It's their "newest" one in term of years since built at 27. The rest are stored at either Murcia or Kemble. Many are over 30 years old so highly unlikely they will ever fly commercially again.

We shall see. My understanding is that the 757s stored in Murica are all still planned to fly this summer's programme whereas the ones in Kemble will soon be tin cans (RIP). Hopefully that will indeed be the case as I'm booked onto one in September!

 

[cptaidan88]

Only this Denis. Jet 2 may have older planes but an excellent safety record. Easyjet are a quality company with lots of little extras.

Fuckers have got rid of their decent hand baggage allowance and making you pay for it now like all the others.

I'll fly with whoever flies to where I want to go, and if there are multiple companies, whoever does it cheapest.

Christ, I miss getting on planes going somewhere new.

 

[Two Gun Bob]

Fuckers have got rid of their decent hand baggage allowance and making you pay for it now like all the others.

I'll fly with whoever flies to where I want to go, and if there are multiple companies, whoever does it cheapest.

Christ, I miss getting on planes going somewhere new.

I had no idea Captain and this is a very sad day for civil aviation. It made Easyjet a no brainer for mid week breaks were you could fit in all your clobber in the hand luggage unrestricted by weight.

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