9/11 - More evidence it was set up by people in the shadows

[Skashion]

Not going to read the Operation Northwoods PDF then Dunning (or is it Kruger)?

 

[MCFCinUSA]

There we have it. We are all morons. MCFCinUSA is the most intelligent and educated person on bluemoon. Nobody else is capable of matching his stupidity. Please don't try as soon as you get down to his moronic levels he will beat you with experience.

very simply Bulgaria, in light of all the real evidence and documented witnesses, including the actual testimony of those responsible who claimed credit for the attacks along with the intelligence gathering both before and after the events by secret service agencies around the world, PLUS impossibility of anything conspiratorial actually happening (which I'll not repeat the mountain of arguments in favour of ad nauseum) it means that anyone who still can't figure things out has to be stupid, or incapable of dispassionate rational thought (for some other mental incapacity/bias/inability) - do you see that yet?

that's my point.

- and that you obviously still don't get it

;o)

 

[BulgarianPride]

So the American government planned a horrific attack on their own citizens, on their own soil, on one of their greatest landmarks, which killed thousands ( including some of the people they hold in their highest esteem, policemen and firemen),

Anne also destroyed part of their main defense headquarters and killing their own staff whilst in the process making their whole national security look a shambles and defenseless ?

Hmmmmm......I don't think so

You do a disservice to those that died

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010 ... hwoods.pdf</a> Read that, pay particular attention to the appendix where possible actions are suggested and see how far they would have gone. Signed off on by a man who just a year later was Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. Read the Pentagon Papers whilst you're at it. Might knock some further sense into you.

Who's Anne and what has she got to do with things?

That's because you're a naive idiot who thinks a US government isn't capable of planning an attack on its own civilians. If the only reason you think that's not the way 9/11 went down you are more a fool than any 9/11 CT'er/truther.

Oh, the attempted and failed emotional angle. Stop all scrutiny of 9/11 because you're doing a disservice to those who died. A bigger crock of shit line has never been uttered so often. Tell me how. Go on, in what way does it do a disservice to those who died? What about those that are also CT'er/truthers? Are they being disrespectful to their own relatives and friends simply because they aren't satisfied that their questions have been answered - which they haven't.

Just in case it was missed by our local genius.



MCFCinUSA i have said it many times, i don't personally think this was an inside job. However lots of things don't make sense. It is worth studying how a building can collapse onto itself and be reduced to powder so that we can prevent future catastrophes. The "official" explanation does not make sense in many qualified people. If you can't convince the qualified personal how are you going to convince the rest? Please don't reply with Dunning-Kruger...

 

[Skashion]

PLUS impossibility of anything conspiratorial actually happening (which I'll not repeat the mountain of arguments in favour of ad nauseum)

I know you're a big fan of quotes so here's one:

But the most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success.

Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Paraphrased often as 'tell a big lie often enough'.

Now, to summarise my basic point, governments habitually lie and commit evil in pursuance of some objective. Whether that happened on 9/11, I don't know. As it stands the official narrative is as much a conspiracy theory as the rest. All of them have gaps in evidence and rationale.

 

[MCFCinUSA]

Not going to read the Operation Northwoods PDF then Dunning (or is it Kruger)?

SK, whatever that stuff relates to has nothing to do with 9/11.

it is irrelevant and of utterly no consequence.

the fact governments commit assassinations and atrocities has no bearing on 9/11 either.

if I were to argue that people lie, therefore whatever the gov't says about 9/11 isn't true, and therefore they did it, it would be a totally fallacious argument.

no one on this thread needs to be willfully ignorant.

everyone I'm sure has the capacity to consider things in the cold light of day, to follow what the Germans were doing (by which I mean their intelligence agencies who were tracking the Hamburg cell in particular) and also what in turn the Americans were doing, and to understand that the hijackers came from the Middle East in an operation that was planned out and executed by various terrorist cells over several years, who evaded interception by some quite comical mistakes and in the main poor communication between intelligence gathering operatives and their not-so-communicative agencies - and there you have it.

it's not rocket science.

all this paraphernalia on YouTube and other such conspiracy theories regarding 9/11 amount to nothing other than ramblings like this on the moon landings:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5MVVtFYTSo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5MVVtFYTSo</a>

(see, a video - doesn't mean it's all true though, even though you have wizened old men saying things like "hoax" and "conspiracy")

interestingly Mythbusters (in the USA) went to extreme lengths to recreate experiments to debunk all the 'arguments' moon landing non-believers hold true; worryingly Gallup did a poll here in the USA when in 1999 whereby 6% of all those people questioned admitted to believing the moon landings were faked.

it's scary stuff when you consider 6% of the US population is a pretty big number, and they're all out there walking around doing their stuff... (and presumably voted for G W Bush)



;o)

 

[Skashion]

MCFCinUSA, I was beginning to wonder whether you have me on ignore. It does relate to 9/11 if the reason, or one of the reasons, for rejecting it is that you are incapable of believing a US government could not even plan such acts because they would instantly fall afoul of another loyal American fitting them up for high treason. It is absolutely relevant to that claim, a claim you made, a farcical one.

 

[MCFCinUSA]

MCFCinUSA i have said it many times, i don't personally think this was an inside job. However lots of things don't make sense. It is worth studying how a building can collapse onto itself and be reduced to powder so that we can prevent future catastrophes. The "official" explanation does not make sense in many qualified people. If you can't convince the qualified personal how are you going to convince the rest? Please don't reply with Dunning-Kruger...

okay Bulgaria, I'm sorry I didn't pick-up on your position earlier; my apologies.

- see, I knew you weren't totally gone...

however, just because we can't explain completely or understand the complex systems at work when two fueled large-bodied passenger jets slam into the WTC and 1,000,000 tons of shit comes down, it doesn't follow that something untoward happened involving mysterious legions of demolition experts acting in cohort under some malevolent 'central government' directive (not to mention in tandem with the overseas pilots of the hijacked aircraft to co-ordinate everything for the same day) that would have been impossible from a multitude of angles.

Malcolm Gladwell wrote a whole book about stuff like the above - Outliers.

the answer isn't Dunning-Kruger (who essentially only postulated that some people are too stupid to recognise they're stupid - and vastly overestimate their capacities or skills without questioning; whereas those who are generally more capable tend to underestimate their abilities and suffer less from 'blind faith' in themselves) but lies in Occam's Razor.<br /><br />-- Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:44 pm --<br /><br />

MCFCinUSA, I was beginning to wonder whether you have me on ignore. It does relate to 9/11 if the reason, or one of the reasons, for rejecting it is that you are incapable of believing a US government could not even plan such acts because they would instantly fall afoul of another loyal American fitting them up for high treason. It is absolutely relevant to that claim, a claim you made, a farcical one.

someone once said in Rome it's Man-CHI-KNEE, but in Moss Side it's Man-SEA-NEH; which was very amusing.

so in your mind what you've posted up has significance and justifies your beliefs (whatever they are) about 9/11, but in mine they don't.

we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

they have as much relevance on this subject as me saying Idi Amin ate his own people (after he'd murdered them) and therefore is the current President Yoweri Kaguta Museveni a murdering cannibal.

equally I'd be a little naive if I claimed that the government of the Third Reich went about systematically killing 6,000,000 of its own and neighbouring countries' citizens using gas ovens, then arguing logically so too could Obama's sitting US Gov't (perhaps just to spice things up I might claim because the KKK has actively infiltrated American government and is covertly orchestrating it)

and so on...

 

[Skashion]

MCFCinUSA, I was beginning to wonder whether you have me on ignore. It does relate to 9/11 if the reason, or one of the reasons, for rejecting it is that you are incapable of believing a US government could not even plan such acts because they would instantly fall afoul of another loyal American fitting them up for high treason. It is absolutely relevant to that claim, a claim you made, a farcical one.

so in your mind what you've posted up has significance and justifies your beliefs (whatever they are) about 9/11, but in mine they don't.

we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

they have as much relevance on this subject as me saying Idi Amin ate his own people (after he'd murdered them) and therefore is the current President Yoweri Kaguta Museveni a murdering cannibal.

equally I'd be a little naive if I claimed that the government of the Third Reich went about systematically killing 6,000,000 of its own and neighbouring countries' citizens using gas ovens, then arguing logically so too could Obama's sitting US Gov't (perhaps just to spice things up I might claim because the KKK has actively infiltrated American government and is covertly orchestrating it)

and so on...

So your defence is that President Kennedy's administration definitely was evil and thus were capable of such plots but President Bush's administration definitely wasn't? Awesome argument.

 

[MCFCinUSA]

Dude, I don't draw any of those conclusions whatsoever and neither can I follow your logic, although it's amusing.

What's the point?

You're making no sense whatsoever, and trying to link totally unrelated 'issues' in addition to making outrageous nonsensical arguments.

Don't you know an awful lot of bad things happen in the world that aren't nice or entirely 'legal'? (have you only just found this out?)

Politicians lie to people all the time (ooo, shocker!)

Governments are corrupt!

They fight 'unlawful' wars, murder and assassinate people, and in a few cases where they're far less accountable they embezzle resources that don't belong to them (and in the USA this has happened on a smaller scale to the grander schemes of tin pot dictatorships, but they generally more or less get caught and exposed in the long-run for all sorts of reasons).

They also torture people!

It doesn't mean 9/11 was anything other than a terrorist plot that came from outside of the USA (which wasn't aided and abetted by US agents/agencies/gov't etc)

There is no evidence that supports any such fanciful ideas - contrary to the very silly YouTube videos people gorp at that claim such.

However, there is plenty of evidence from the terrorists themselves, the various international security services, and what people actually saw with their own eyes on 9/11; by which I mean aircraft flying into Lower Manhattan and hitting several skyscrapers which then collapsed, etc etc.

(people playing guessing games and alluding to non-existent far-fetched 'explanations' and posting their lunacy on YouTube don't count)

now if you want to wave an empty crisp packet around and tell me that's got something to do with the price of fish to prove your point I'm going to have to hold my hands up and say I've got no idea of the relevance of what you're talking about and call it silly.

so...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRm5WcjOikQ[/youtube]

and that's the end of that SK; there's really nothing else for me to say or add to this.

- ends -

 

[Bilboblue]

Dude, I don't draw any of those conclusions whatsoever and neither can I follow your logic, although it's amusing.

What's the point?

You're making no sense whatsoever, and trying to link totally unrelated 'issues' in addition to making outrageous nonsensical arguments.

Don't you know an awful lot of bad things happen in the world that aren't nice or entirely 'legal'? (have you only just found this out?)

Politicians lie to people all the time (ooo, shocker!)

Governments are corrupt!

They fight 'unlawful' wars, murder and assassinate people, and in a few cases where they're far less accountable they embezzle resources that don't belong to them (and in the USA this has happened on a smaller scale to the grander schemes of tin pot dictatorships, but they generally more or less get caught and exposed in the long-run for all sorts of reasons).

They also torture people!

It doesn't mean 9/11 was anything other than a terrorist plot that came from outside of the USA (which wasn't aided and abetted by US agents/agencies/gov't etc)

There is no evidence that supports any such fanciful ideas - contrary to the very silly YouTube videos people gorp at that claim such.

However, there is plenty of evidence from the terrorists themselves, the various international security services, and what people actually saw with their own eyes on 9/11; by which I mean aircraft flying into Lower Manhattan and hitting several skyscrapers which then collapsed, etc etc.

(people playing guessing games and alluding to non-existent far-fetched 'explanations' and posting their lunacy on YouTube don't count)

now if you want to wave an empty crisp packet around and tell me that's got something to do with the price of fish to prove your point I'm going to have to hold my hands up and say I've got no idea of the relevance of what you're talking about and call it silly.

so...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRm5WcjOikQ[/youtube]

and that's the end of that SK; there's really nothing else for me to say or add to this.

- ends -

I think Skashion has asked you a few questions and you cannot answer them, his point about previous US Governments activities IS relevant to the possibilities of government involvement, and if you are ignorant to that possibility, then you Sir, are naive too.


Not saying that I believe it about the Twin Towers, but one thing I am sceptical about is the attack on the Pentagon, the most secretive building in the US and all we have is a split second security camera shot of something flying into the building? Doesn't wash with me, there must have been other cameras filming EVERYTHING from EVERY angle around that building, yet not one shot clearly shows an aircraft nearing the place.

Cue X-Files theme tune.....