A scenario

[not my fault!]

Oooo, this is good, a mass-debate. ;0)

 

[meldrew]

The club were going down as a whole under Sven, performances in the second half of the season were crap(The odd one of two decent one's), players attitudes were questioned and there was general hysteria around the place(Agents, Family members and friends at Carrington).

Hughes is doing his best to change this by weeding out the shite and changing the attitude of the club as a whole to be more professional and workmanlike.

I support him and other fans should too.

Yes, but do you think that Sam, or any other manager, is correct in saying that results and perfomances are nothing to do with him and can't improve until he gets 3/4s of a new squad?

Is this fair, realistic or the actions of a quality manager?

That's what I'm asking on this thread

No, asking for a completly new squad is wrong!

On the other hand though, he does seem to be trying to turn things around. Obviously some of these method's are not for certain members of the squad, if this is the case, get rid! Which would justify getting the new signings in!

 

[rastus]

Interesting parallel and there's definitely room to criticize Hughes for the way in which he's handled certain elements within the squad.

But the reality is that Hughes has the money, and the owners want success.

How about this for a sample conversation...

Sheikh Mansoor: So Mark, we're the new owners. We want success. We understand that it can't be bought overnight, but we want to know which areas of the squad need strengthening.

Hughes: Well, to be honest, all of them.

Sheikh Mansoor: What are the problem areas.

Hughes: Most of the players we have are average, and the squad is terribly unbalanced.

Sheikh Mansoor: Well, in January you can address this.

Hughes: How much will I have to spend?

Sheikh Mansoor: Money is not relevant. You spend the next few months identifying who you want in, and who you want out, and we will back you in January.

Fast forward three months...

Sheikh Mansoor: Results have been terrible and morale seems really low. What on earth is going on...

Hughes: The squad's unbalanced and inconsistent. I told you that when you bought the club. We're capable of beating Pompey and Hull by a bag full of goals...but when the players have to battle and scrap for points, too many of them just go missing. Sven had the same problem last season. The problem now is, they know they're at the richest club in the world, and they know that a raft of them are going to be replaced. They simply don't care.

Sheikh Mansoor: So what shall we do?

Hughes: Replace the inconsistent players with better ones.

Sheikh Mansoor: Here's my cheque book...make it work Mark.

Hughes: Will do...

See, it's easy doing role play exercises!

Shiek: However I am concerned there has been no improvement infact, we have detiorated and morale is low and you have already spent £60 mil.

Hughes: Its that Elano he gets on my tits, once hes gone , everything will change when Belly arrives.

Shiek: It must be difficult for you to manage people, but hears my check book anway.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

It is another excuse from Hughes.

The players need time to gel.
We don't like the physical games
The players are revolting (some of them bloody are under your leadership, Hughes)

As soon as I watched his interview on Saturday where he blamed defeat on the weakness of his squad and said he needs new players in, then I knew he had lost it.

It was a team full of internationals against a team of journeymen. At home.

I am sick of his excuses. He is the manager, the bucks tops with him.

Personnally i believe we will hang on to him until the summer to ensure that our next manager is world class. He is, after all, to ADUG, what Brain Horton was to Franny Lee. A dead man walking.

And Franny saved us after all, didn't he?

 

[allblackcitizen]

The club were going down as a whole under Sven, performances in the second half of the season were crap(The odd one of two decent one's), players attitudes were questioned and there was general hysteria around the place(Agents, Family members and friends at Carrington).

Hughes is doing his best to change this by weeding out the shite and changing the attitude of the club as a whole to be more professional and workmanlike.

I support him and other fans should too.

Yes, but do you think that Sam, or any other manager, is correct in saying that results and perfomances are nothing to do with him and can't improve until he gets 3/4s of a new squad?

Is this fair, realistic or the actions of a quality manager?

That's what I'm asking on this thread

3/4's of a new squad? That would be in the region of 15-20 players. I haven't seen Hughes or anyone request 15-20 new players. I've seen him suggest 5 new players capable of performing consistently at first team level are required. Who on earth could disagree with that after watching the first half of the season?

If anyone thinks we have a good, balanced squad capable of competing at the top end of the table just have a look at the player profile section on the OS. It's completely unbalanced and utterly threadbare in key areas - 2 rookie keepers; several poor (Ball, TBH, Garrido - yes he's improved, but am yet to be convinced he's top drawer), out of form (Richards, Dunne), perenially injured (Ned) defenders; 1 reliable DM (Kompany) - the rest injured (Johnson), unable to run (Hamann), shit (Gelson); AM - generally excellent (Ireland, SWP) but now riven by injury and badly missing Petrov all season and an infuriating Elano; and a glut of forwards, either injured (Boj, Benjani), not good enough (Vas, Benjani, Jo, Caceido), too young/inconsistent (Studge/Evans/Caceido), with only really Robbie making the grade.

There is some talent there, hence the handsome victories when all goes to plan, but it's too easily undone and when you look at the players at Hughes' disposal it's really no wonder we're struggling.

5 new players of proven PL quality as a minimum, I'd say. And if a galactico wants to come and accept the challenge, then that's fine too.

 

[Anonymous]

When the Shiek states he wants improvements and success, Billy, is that 'winning the league' success, or is it 'mid table security and maybe winning a couple of cup games' success?

Winning the league. But not overnight...over time. Which I presume that you agree, it will take.

Granted, the one legitimate thing that I can see some sense in is that some players know they are going to be replaced.

However, this happens at many clubs where a new manager comes in. Some players sulk, many knuckle down and wait for their move, others try to convince the manager they should stay, often after being told tht if they are doing well enough then there's a chance (Ireland?).

The difficult part about that scenario for me is that the likes of Richards, Hart, maybe Dunne, Onouha as a prospect, Jo as a prospect, Elano, Sturridge, etc all have the potential to be good enough to be part of at least the short to medium term plans here. Whether that's the next 12 months or the next 3 years.

Yet we are asked to believe that on mass they are all part of the huge percentage of this squad who apparently have decided to down tools and that no matter what they do are going to be sold down the river.

That's an extreme way of looking at it. The likely scenario, from what I've read, and heard, is that some players don't like Hughes and his methods, and others simply know that they're on their way out. If you add them together, you have a percentage of players who for different reasons, have stopped caring.

If they honestly believe this, which is what we are now asked to believe, then doesn't that suggest that the manager has failed to convince them that he sees their value or potential to be part of any medium term plans?

This part I've said I agree with a few times now. Hughes should've been smart enough to figure out ways to placate the dissenting voices. Trouble is, we don't really know how dissenting they were being. Anyway, as I say, mistake on Hughes' part.

And isn't that exactly what a manager should do to make sure that current performance stay acceptable and players continue to strive to do their best until such time that they leave the club?

Well, I agree. And I said much the same thing when many of the players downed tools for the last third of last season.

Honestly JMA, you're a smart guy. Don't you think that all the questions we've asked on these very boards over the last few months, have been asked of Hughes and Cook by our owners. Don't you think they have advisors who are also asking why elements of the squad have been so disillusioned. Isn't it fair to say they must have had satisfactory answers since Hughes is being entrusted with more money to buy more players, whilst those troublemakers are being "hung out to dry" by the management of the club.

When was the last time that a football club had this much unrest in the dressing room and the manager was not ousted? I can't remember...surely that must say to you that there is maybe a little more at play than the usual shenanigans which go on at most clubs.

I respect that fact that so many people want Hughes out, and I've said on a few occasions that if Hughes were sacked he'd have little room for complaint since the results have been far too inconsistent. Obviously the powers that be feel there have been enough mitigating circumstances to allow the manager to continue his re-building plan for the club...

 

[bluemoondays]

Imagine the scenario in the City dressing room the morning of Sept 1st when some knobhead announces he is going to buy the top players from every team and spend 100's of millions of pounds.

LB - Shit, no renewed contract for me, ah well, I'll go on a Bosman and some shit side will pick me up and keep paying me 15k/week. Time to pull up the footstool for a year.
CB - Damn, the suckers gave me a payrise to the level of some top players in the PL. I told Ish that last time I had a pot roast it wasn't anything like that. TIME TO HIT THOSE WEIGHTS!!!!
CB - Wife having a baby, weeks of sleepless nights ahead, oh crap.........
CB - Now who can I cry to this week, bitching about my position to my buddy didn't help - I know, I'll go straight to the top and whinge like a little girl....oh shit, why am I dropped from the squad?
CB - Who am I? Where am I? Has anybody seen me? - I'm the INVISIBLE MAN they keep singing about!!!
DM - Fussball factory, zcrew zis at my age - I'm going for anuzzer fag
DM - Cluck, cluck, cluck-cluck - OH NO, my heads fell off!!!!!
AM - We have signed my bezzie mate gringo. Ah sheet, that means I won't play every week. I must get my Che Guevara autobigraphy out and work on an eensurrection queeckly.
ST - muy dios, I am on the combined wage of the Sao Paulo population, TIME TO PARTYYYYY!!!!!!
MC - Damn, the suckers gave me a payrise to the level of some top players in the PL, I feel a mystery injury coming on apart from when its TIME TO PARTY AT THE CASINO!!!!
ST/RW - Shit, no renewed contract for me, ah well, I'll go on a Bosman and some shit side will pick me up and keep paying me 25k/week. Time to put my feet up.
ST - Ah well, I have got a contract for the next 3 years - at least I can afford to pay my dentist to keep my gleaming smile perfect. Damn, I need to book another 8 orthodontist appointments for the 1st half of the season, bollocks to training.
ST - I feel a twinge in my ankle - OH NO, My legs fallen off!!!

Meanwhile, about 10 players quietly get on with training hard...........

 

[vbr]

Imagine the scenario in the City dressing room the morning of Sept 1st when some knobhead announces he is going to buy the top players from every team and spend 100's of millions of pounds.

LB - Shit, no renewed contract for me, ah well, I'll go on a Bosman and some shit side will pick me up and keep paying me 15k/week. Time to pull up the footstool for a year.
CB - Damn, the suckers gave me a payrise to the level of some top players in the PL. I told Ish that last time I had a pot roast it wasn't anything like that. TIME TO HIT THOSE WEIGHTS!!!!
CB - Wife having a baby, weeks of sleepless nights ahead, oh crap.........
CB - Now who can I cry to this week, bitching about my position to my buddy didn't help - I know, I'll go straight to the top and whinge like a little girl....oh shit, why am I dropped from the squad?
CB - Who am I? Where am I? Has anybody seen me? - I'm the INVISIBLE MAN they keep singing about!!!
DM - Fussball factory, zcrew zis at my age - I'm going for anuzzer fag
DM - Cluck, cluck, cluck-cluck - OH NO, my heads fell off!!!!!
AM - We have signed my bezzie mate gringo. Ah sheet, that means I won't play every week. I must get my Che Guevara autobigraphy out and work on an eensurrection queeckly.
ST - muy dios, I am on the combined wage of the Sao Paulo population, TIME TO PARTYYYYY!!!!!!
MC - Damn, the suckers gave me a payrise to the level of some top players in the PL, I feel a mystery injury coming on apart from when its TIME TO PARTY AT THE CASINO!!!!
ST/RW - Shit, no renewed contract for me, ah well, I'll go on a Bosman and some shit side will pick me up and keep paying me 25k/week. Time to put my feet up.
ST - Ah well, I have got a contract for the next 3 years - at least I can afford to pay my dentist to keep my gleaming smile perfect. Damn, I need to book another 8 orthodontist appointments for the 1st half of the season, bollocks to training.
ST - I feel a twinge in my ankle - OH NO, My legs fallen off!!!

Meanwhile, about 10 players quietly get on with training hard...........

PMSL. Quality.

 

[rastus]

Imagine the scenario in the City dressing room the morning of Sept 1st when some knobhead announces he is going to buy the top players from every team and spend 100's of millions of pounds.

LB - Shit, no renewed contract for me, ah well, I'll go on a Bosman and some shit side will pick me up and keep paying me 15k/week. Time to pull up the footstool for a year.
CB - Damn, the suckers gave me a payrise to the level of some top players in the PL. I told Ish that last time I had a pot roast it wasn't anything like that. TIME TO HIT THOSE WEIGHTS!!!!
CB - Wife having a baby, weeks of sleepless nights ahead, oh crap.........
CB - Now who can I cry to this week, bitching about my position to my buddy didn't help - I know, I'll go straight to the top and whinge like a little girl....oh shit, why am I dropped from the squad?
CB - Who am I? Where am I? Has anybody seen me? - I'm the INVISIBLE MAN they keep singing about!!!
DM - Fussball factory, zcrew zis at my age - I'm going for anuzzer fag
DM - Cluck, cluck, cluck-cluck - OH NO, my heads fell off!!!!!
AM - We have signed my bezzie mate gringo. Ah sheet, that means I won't play every week. I must get my Che Guevara autobigraphy out and work on an eensurrection queeckly.
ST - muy dios, I am on the combined wage of the Sao Paulo population, TIME TO PARTYYYYY!!!!!!
MC - Damn, the suckers gave me a payrise to the level of some top players in the PL, I feel a mystery injury coming on apart from when its TIME TO PARTY AT THE CASINO!!!!
ST/RW - Shit, no renewed contract for me, ah well, I'll go on a Bosman and some shit side will pick me up and keep paying me 25k/week. Time to put my feet up.
ST - Ah well, I have got a contract for the next 3 years - at least I can afford to pay my dentist to keep my gleaming smile perfect. Damn, I need to book another 8 orthodontist appointments for the 1st half of the season, bollocks to training.
ST - I feel a twinge in my ankle - OH NO, My legs fallen off!!!

Meanwhile, about 10 players quietly get on with training hard...........

Lol...I reckon about 3 players and it must be fun in there at the minute.
Imagine Hughes talking to those players like a man, but shit he doesnt talk to them because he is busy doing other things, leaves it NVQ level 1 Mr Bowen and company.#
Ita a crazy situation.

 

[Blue Mooner]

Picture this.

In two weeks time Sam Alladyce knocks on the door of John Williams.

"John, I have some concerning news", says Fat Sam.

"I've come to the conclusion that the squad you have here is not good enough. I can't be expected to work with this. It is impossible for me to get results with them and until you provide me with £150m to buy a completely new team then this club is doomed to shocking results."

"John, I'm a man of high standards. I've worked with players like Ivan Campo and Kevin Davies in the past. What do you expect me to do with this lot?"

"Yes, Pederson and Roberts might have talent but I'm more ambitious than that John. I want better players, players of my own choosing. I can't believe you expect me to get results with players that I haven't bought."

"I refuse to take responsibility for any results until you provide me with this money, John, so get your wallet out. Until you do then things won't get any better and there's nothing I can do about it"

So Williams replies:

"Sam, we brought you here on the strength of what you've done in the past. You've worked with limited players, done good things with them and gradually evolved your squad over time, when budgets allow it."

"We need you to develop something here Sam. Establish a rapport with the players. make them get results for you. Sure, some of them were poor under Ince but you're a top manager Sam. We expect you to be able to get more out of them, use your managerial skills to advance them, make the environment easier for everyone to get results, make average players good and good players better."

"That's why we believe in you, Sam. We didn't get you because we thought you would be a good man to throw £200m at players and spunk money at anything that is available. We got you because you have shown good managerial qualities in the past and we believe you have what it takes to make something here."

"We'll give you some money, Sam. But we cn't just replace 3/4 of a squad at the drop of a hat. No manager in history has ever been able to do that. Managers work with what they've got and then improve when they can. You can't just say it's nothing to do with you until they are all your signings, Sam"

Sam replies:

"John, they were shit under Ince. Therefore they are going to be shit under me. What do you expect?"

"Work with them, Sam. Get their confidence. Show them the way to win, use you managerial skills. It's not fantasy football, Sam. We're not paying you this big wage just to pick players out of a catalogue. You have to work with what's here too" says John.

Sam gets up.

"£200m for a new squad or you're fucked, John. Your choice."




Is Sam justified in saying that it's nothing to do with him until John gives him a truck load of money or should he accept responsibility for keeping Blackburn up with the current squad and a few additions that he can get in January?

But if your the manager and you can pick players out of a catalogue then why wouldn't you ?

Perhaps he conversation may go thus:

Williams

Sam are you sure you can get the current players to improve their level of performance even with the potenial that we may suffer inujries to some key players and do this without spending any money Sam ?

Sam

Of course, that's what I'm paid to do, that's what a manager does John, uses their tactical nouse, training methods and man management skills to ensure optimal performance

Williams

Great, and I can presume you can ensure we are pushing for a top six spot when for the last 12 months we have looked like a relegation side and you don't need that extra £100 million I've got burning a hole in my pocket to do it ?

Sam

errrr, I said I could improve performances John not perform a f*cking miracle