Adam Johnson to dippers

[Dax777]

too see someone go to that much effort to reply to someone is post is a pleasure to see... well played

if it really is 25 million i would sell him in a heartbeat.. 19 million or so profit on a player who if he wasnt english wouldnt even be worth 19million pounds. the guy IMO is remembered for the couple of darting runs he has each game... not the times where he does nothing for 80 minutes or gives the ball away again and again.. just like boateng if he can be sold for profit, well in johnsons case alot of profit then so be it.. good business by the club!

Ah! I thank you for the compliment :) I try to be detailed when I hold a position contrary to one I have read. It is my way of saying, "let's talk this thru." Unfortunately it does come off arrogant some times, which inevitably defeats the purpose of wanting to have the discussion in the first place :(

-- Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:13 pm --

Dax, you're a good kid but you are going to make an arse of yourself again for the sake of trying to prove yourself right.

Chick C-fly, On two counts you have been wrong about me.
1) I am not a kid, and
2) It is not for the sake of trying to prove myself right, but rather, I relish the opportunity of others proving me wrong. My theory is quite simple, if I stay emotionally distant from my argument or positions, I'd most often be right or at the least reasoned in my view.
Being proven wrong will actually be a pleasure :) And as for making an "arse" of myself, I doubt that has ever deterred me from holding my position :)

You do happen to be one of the people I enjoy engaging in opposing discussions with. Coz you often strike me as not only logical in your thought process, but willing to both back up your positions with evidence, as well as see where others stand on the issue. For that I am grateful :) But now that I am done buttering you all up lets get to the discussion, shall we!

We barely had any injuries at all in the last two months, Tevez aside.

Now don't you find that comment of yours odd? It is the equivalent of someone saying, "I am not a robber, I mean outside of looting the Central Bank, I really am not a robber" :).

I said AJ doesn't usually start when we have our full complement of players. In response you are saying he does, and then you show me evidence that he did, "when our best player was injured." The very condition "all our players" is betrayed when our best offensive player is out, wouldn't you agree?

But lets examine this in its entirety. Looking at pattern of starts, and then you tell me if he strikes you as someone who was a regular starter when we had all our complements.

First 10 games of the season, AJ starts in 3. Against Liverpool (which was 3 days before our Europa home game) against Sunderland (3 days after the Europa cup game) and the Carling cup game, played by mostly backups.

If you remember correctly Mancini was slowly introducing Silva as he had a long summer and barely had any breaks. So he was always rested when games were in close proximity. All Silva rests coincides with AJ starting in the first 10 games. Now unless you see Silva as a backup, albeit starting more than 2ice the number of games AJ started, plus there being a correlation between AJ starting/Silva not starting and vice versa, I think we can jointly agree that AJ was Silva's backup early on.

Game 20 thru 30, AJ started 3 of the first 5. Didn't start in 4 straight after wards (All coinciding with the return of Balotelli) and even with Tevez injured AJ still was coming off the bench as we had Ade back then to lead the line.

Now I could go on analysing every 10 games but I don't want to bore you with minutia. So lets forward to your actual post regarding the post iAJ njury period. But it is safe to say from AJ not starting against any of the top teams, and playing only in B games in place of Silva, that he was a backup early on in the season. Even with Balotelli mostly injured at that point. :)

End of January, AJ gets injured;

"It's a big problem - Johnson is a big player for us" 30th January

May I ask you, have you ever known Mancini to call any player "a small player for us," or "not important?" I ask out of curiosity, as to know what reverence you expect me to give a coach's comment about his injured player. :?

He returned for the Sunderland game. Afterwards, Mancini says;
""After Adam Johnson got injured we had a big problem because he is different to the other players." 30th March

Yes it was a big problem, coz at the time, we had loaned out all our none essentials and were playing games every 3 days with essentially the same players. I remember Silva being niked up on the 22
"Feb 28, 2011 ... David Silva is also currently sidelined after he started to experience pain in an ankle he needed surgery on a couple of years ago."
"Feb 21, 2011 ... James Milner out with a hamstring injury, Mario Balotelli closing in on comeback"
"Mar 11, 2008 ... Ivory Coast midfielder Yaya Toure is expected to be out of action for a month because of a back injury"
"Mar 20, 2011 ... Carlos Tevez should recover from groin injury and return for Manchester City's clash with Sunderland"
As you can see, nicks and the like were around aplenty

This was the first of five consecutive starts, including the Semi. Then on as sub vs Everton, before going back to a starting role for the Tottenham game. Came on as sub in the final, then straight back into the starting line up for the last three league games. What injuries did we have during this period? Dzeko, Milner and Balotelli all spent far, far more time on the bench

Well, during this period, a certain Carloz Tevez was injured, which mean't Mario Balotelli got to lead the line, opening up a spot in the attacking 3 that Adam Johnson filled.
Against Sunderland we had just lost a game to Chelsea and were poor offensively. Mancini wanted a spark, so he took off Barry and added AJ. Unfortunalely Tevez got injured the very next game 5 minutes in. Which from then on mean't Balo got to lead the line and opening an actual position at AM that AJ filled. As for the games after the FA finals, Mario was injured again opening up the position AJ filled.

Look, I could take each game and explain the circumstance, and certainly there probably were games in which Mancini just started AJ pure and simple. But by and large when everyone was fit AJ was a sub.
Tevez: 35 starts 1 sub
Silva 30 starts 5 subs
Yaya 35 starts 0 subs
Balo 12 starts 5 subs
Milner 23 starts 9 subs
Adam Johnson 15 starts 16 subs

You tell me who strikes you as the least likely to be a starter if all 7 players are healthy. Call me stupid but it will seem the only guy with more games as a sub sticks out like a blue thumb.

Mancini didn't go on record about 'width', but the issue has been done to death. It was highlighted in just about every tactical analysis going. You can play Milner there but he doesn't like it, he's slower and doesn't dribble. You can play Balotelli there but he will be looking to go up against (and in behind) the Centre Backs. It's not width.

The presumption on your part is that Mancini wants the wide AM to create width. I'd argue that is a false assumption. He wants the Fullbacks to create width. Milner or Balo don't play there to create width, they play there because they are creative.

Width is where you take the fullback right outside the penalty area, pulling the whole team with him. AJ has his shortcomings but he requires close attention by the fullback, and the fact he gets through from time to time means the Centre Back is constantly thinking about moving closer to cover the fullback.

Well good for AJ, but you do realize this doesn't change the fact he was predominantly a substitute. He was subbed into game more than any City player, was the only player with more than 15 appearances who had more substitutions than starts. He is like I said a backup.

Now, have I made an arse of myself :P

 

[Bill]

Do we need the money?
No
Will it help the dippers?
Yes

End of thread.

 

[goatboy]

why not just shift him out to the left as cover for silva and let him try to whip some balls in for dzeko and have weiss as cover for sanchez (assuming he signs and vlad is'nt a makeweight)

cheaper than more upheaval and retaining two homegrown players (vlad is classed as homegrown right) who's guile and creativity may be just whats required when tapping the ball about ala arsenal and letting the other team get 10 men behind the ball and park the bus. we were guilty of that a lot last year. so there's my constructive criticism<br /><br />-- Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:19 am --<br /><br />why not just shift him out to the left as cover for silva and let him try to whip some balls in for dzeko and have weiss as cover for sanchez (assuming he signs and vlad is'nt a makeweight)

cheaper than more upheaval and retaining two homegrown players (vlad is classed as homegrown right) who's guile and creativity may be just whats required when tapping the ball about ala arsenal and letting the other team get 10 men behind the ball and park the bus. we were guilty of that a lot last year. so there's my constructive criticism

 

[Dax777]

why not just shift him out to the left as cover for silva and let him try to whip some balls in for dzeko and have weiss as cover for sanchez (assuming he signs and vlad is'nt a makeweight)

cheaper than more upheaval and retaining two homegrown players (vlad is classed as homegrown right) who's guile and creativity may be just whats required when tapping the ball about ala arsenal and letting the other team get 10 men behind the ball and park the bus. we were guilty of that a lot last year. so there's my constructive criticism

I think that is part of the reasoning behind trying to get Sanchez.

But regardless, it is a fallacy that dribbling is a more effective means of breaking down teams that park the bus. Dribblers just end up dribbling themselves into a quagmire. As has been done often by AJ, rahther, intelligence, vision, passing ability, and movement off the ball are the true keys to breaking down teams who park the bus.

Unfortunately, we have a drastic shortage of players with such qualities. Silva! That is pretty much it on oue squad. And that is why we struggle. Not because we don't have dribblers.

 

[Bill]

why not just shift him out to the left as cover for silva and let him try to whip some balls in for dzeko and have weiss as cover for sanchez (assuming he signs and vlad is'nt a makeweight)

cheaper than more upheaval and retaining two homegrown players (vlad is classed as homegrown right) who's guile and creativity may be just whats required when tapping the ball about ala arsenal and letting the other team get 10 men behind the ball and park the bus. we were guilty of that a lot last year. so there's my constructive criticism

I think that is part of the reasoning behind trying to get Sanchez.

But regardless, it is a fallacy that dribbling is a more effective means of breaking down teams that park the bus. Dribblers just end up dribbling themselves into a quagmire. As has been done often by AJ, rahther, intelligence, vision, passing ability, and movement off the ball are the true keys to breaking down teams who park the bus.

Unfortunately, we have a drastic shortage of players with such qualities. Silva! That is pretty much it on oue squad. And that is why we struggle. Not because we don't have dribblers.

agreed, i'd rather go for pastore if the money gets up to the 35m mark for sanchez.

 

[goatboy]

personally i'd have more faith in silva unlocking a defence than pastore. i'd like to see people gettin the ball in the box and testing out this new target man of ours. bit of consistent service to him and he'll be a winner

 

[Cityfan]

I would be amazed if we were to sell AJ to Liverpool. Its easy to look at the transfer fees paid for in the papers and think of the profit and what you could make on a deal but it does not seem to work like that.
In reality there are agents fees, signing on fees, loyalty payments to outgoing players and the difference that the club retains is a lot less than the difference between two fees.
Whereas Aj may not have been one of the core players who play virtually every game when fit he was certainly not one of the peripheral players who get occasional games in the less important matches and when beset by injuries. He was injured himself but started quite a few matches and was an 'impact sub' in many others. In some games his talents were a lot more use than others depending on his form and the set up of the other teams. He was certainly missed when not available.
It takes time for players to 'gel' together for you to get used ot other players movements and them yours. He has now had a lot of playing time with many of his team mates, any replacement would have to then find this time and possibly never settle as some do not.
Like it or not there is a premium for English players which we amongst other team seem to be prepared to play see Milners transfer last year.
Whereas any player ultimately has a price I cannot see Liverpool being prepareed to pay anything like the amount that would offset the disruption that losing a valuable squad player and finding anothe to fit would take. As a club we need stability amongst our squad when good enough and AJ has shown himself to capable of bein a very valuable member of a squad that will hopefully play a lot of games next season and will inevitably incur injuries and suspensions.

 

[Matt Diablo]

why not just shift him out to the left as cover for silva and let him try to whip some balls in for dzeko and have weiss as cover for sanchez (assuming he signs and vlad is'nt a makeweight)

cheaper than more upheaval and retaining two homegrown players (vlad is classed as homegrown right) who's guile and creativity may be just whats required when tapping the ball about ala arsenal and letting the other team get 10 men behind the ball and park the bus. we were guilty of that a lot last year. so there's my constructive criticism

I think that is part of the reasoning behind trying to get Sanchez.

But regardless, it is a fallacy that dribbling is a more effective means of breaking down teams that park the bus. Dribblers just end up dribbling themselves into a quagmire. As has been done often by AJ, rahther, intelligence, vision, passing ability, and movement off the ball are the true keys to breaking down teams who park the bus.

Unfortunately, we have a drastic shortage of players with such qualities. Silva! That is pretty much it on oue squad. And that is why we struggle. Not because we don't have dribblers.

agreed, i'd rather go for pastore if the money gets up to the 35m mark for sanchez.

completely different players Bill

 

[M.C.F.C.O.K]

I would say he is worth around £12-15M, but as Henderson was 20M then maybe not. If an offer came in of around £20M i would sell, and offer that money for Nasri, personally.

 

[Cityfan]

I would say he is worth around £12-15M, but as Henderson was 20M then maybe not. If an offer came in of around £20M i would sell, and offer that money for Nasri, personally.

Nasri is a great player who I would have like a shot but I doubt Arsenal would sell him to us and the cost would no way be equivalent for the two players even if the transfer fee was similar because Nasri would I imagine want a far higher salary than AJ currently commands