Afghanistan

[Tim of the Oak]

There is a special Afghan programme to re-settle those who cooperated with UK armed forces.

It doesn't matter what message it send to other refugees as they have already been granted asylum.

The snail paced programme will come too late for some Afghans who risked their lives helping our forces

 

[Tim of the Oak]

There’s your answer.

After the Lord Mayor’s parade

 

[bluethrunthru]

After the Lord Mayor’s parade

Duty last as ever with these wankers.

Patel will have to up the terror threat level now we are re-opening the terrorist training grounds

 

[BigJoe#1]

Easy to say sat at home behind a pc though isnt it. The women of Afghanistan don't stand a chance against the Taliban who have now taken all the military equipment America provided the Afghan army. Whole thing was a shit show lost too many good lads in Afghan for their sacrifice to amount to fuck all. Disgraceful.

So what do we do? We have failed after twenty years of trying and throwing another 450 odd service lives lives into the mix is not going to change that. We need to realise our limitations and protect ourselves and we could start by rounding up everyone that is on the Afghan watchlist and dumping them over there.... because as sure as egg are eggs the dormant terrorist cells that have been living amongst us are going to spring to life - yes thjere may be some collateral damage but not half as much as there will be if we do fuck all!

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Easy to say sat at home behind a pc though isnt it. The women of Afghanistan don't stand a chance against the Taliban who have now taken all the military equipment America provided the Afghan army. Whole thing was a shit show lost too many good lads in Afghan for their sacrifice to amount to fuck all. Disgraceful.

think of the women. Thought they were supposed to be equal now?

 

[Phil Mitchell Foden]

That's what happens when you invade another country , and yes that what we and the good old USA did . We spent years training their army but as soon as we pull out they give up . 20 years and nothing has changed how many more years do you suggest we stay and lose lives as I say they want another form of government they need to fight for it .

We invaded for good reason, just the nation building ambitions didn't work out. Largely because Pakistan is a backwards shithole along the border and there's a never ending stream Taliban militants coming across the border into Afghanistan as they please. And of course, in that it was always a lofty ambition anyway given the tribal and lawless nature of much of Afghanistan.

Nation states and nationalism is a largely European concept, Afghans largely identify with their tribe or ethnic group, and along religious groups. How are you going to get Pashtuns and Tajiks to unify and fight for a common Afghanistan when they don't identify with the concept of a nation state?

It's the tribe and the region they hail from that most Afghans seem to identify with. They're not going to give their lives for an alien nation state in Kabul against Islamist militants with a clear unified ideological goal. That's why they're so easily routed. They don't believe in the state or nation, they believe in the immediacy of their families, regions, tribes etc. They're splintered and don't have clear common goals, meanwhile their enemy is the opposite and ever present.

The West couldn't stay there indefinitely, it's tragic but the nation building efforts were always hugely ambitious, and largely futile as we've since seen. Afghanistan will probably be no different in 100 years.

If all we're worried about at this point is preventing terrorist training camps popping up harboured by the Taliban again, I think it'll just be a detached routine trimming with drones going forward, indefinitely.

Tragic for all the ordinary Afghans who wanted to live in a modern nation-state, but it's difficult to see how it realistically can ever be achieved at this point.

 

[andyhinch]

I honestly don’t know the answer to this, as many occupying forces have found out.

 

[manclad]

We invaded for good reason, just the nation building ambitions didn't work out. Largely because Pakistan is a backwards shithole along the border and there's a never ending stream Taliban militants coming across the border into Afghanistan as they please. And of course, in that it was always a lofty ambition anyway given the tribal and lawless nature of much of Afghanistan.

Nation states and nationalism is a largely European concept, Afghans largely identify with their tribe or ethnic group, and along religious groups. How are you going to get Pashtuns and Tajiks to unify and fight for a common Afghanistan when they don't identify with the concept of a nation state?

It's the tribe and the region they hail from that most Afghans seem to identify with. They're not going to give their lives for an alien nation state in Kabul against Islamist militants with a clear unified ideological goal. That's why they're so easily routed. They don't believe in the state or nation, they believe in the immediacy of their families, regions, tribes etc. They're splintered and don't have clear common goals, meanwhile their enemy is the opposite and ever present.

The West couldn't stay there indefinitely, it's tragic but the nation building efforts were always hugely ambitious, and largely futile as we've since seen. Afghanistan will probably be no different in 100 years.

If all we're worried about at this point is preventing terrorist training camps popping up harboured by the Taliban again, I think it'll just be a detached routine trimming with drones going forward, indefinitely.

Tragic for all the ordinary Afghans who wanted to live in a modern nation-state, but it's difficult to see how it realistically can ever be achieved at this point.

Excellent post.
You summed up the whole 20 year conflict in a few paragraphs.
As you so correctly stated, it is an impossible situation.
We and our NATO allies just cannot go on supporting the whole problem indefinitely.

 

[WestGorton]

After the Lord Mayor’s parade

Exactly. Raab is a complete privileged wanker.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Exactly. Raab is a complete privileged wanker.

considering his prior statement about Dover/Calais its probably news to him he was holidaying abroad

 

[WestGorton]

Just cant imagine the total fear of those citizens about to see their protectors fly off into the sunset leaving them to the most barbaric regime. Understand the arguement it's not our fight but what must be going through those people's minds right now knowing what's coming.

A disgrace. Should never have been there and now should not leave.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Absolute joke we went in there in the first place. I'm not sure what we thought we could achieve?

It allowed Blair to get his tongue further up Dubbya's arse than other world leaders?

 

[bluethrunthru]

A disgrace. Should never have been there and now should not leave.

The problem with it is we went in half cocked and underfunded with no real plan.......sat there not funding reconstruction and showing them why they needed to renounce the Taliban forever........ failed to properly train up and equip local forces and give them a core that could stand up to the Taliban..... then ran......abandoned them.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Excellent post.
You summed up the whole 20 year conflict in a few paragraphs.
As you so correctly stated, it is an impossible situation.
We and our NATO allies just cannot go on supporting the whole problem indefinitely.

The hunting terrorists and nation building thing was always bollocks to sell military action to the public. It was all about slapping the Taliban on the wrists and letting them know that the consequence of allowing transnational terrorists to set up shop on their patch and attack the west would be bad times, disruption of their medieval fiefdom and their lucrative opium business. It's very much mission accomplished for the US, and as you were for the Islamist nuts, just so long as they play ball in the future. The Taliban have no interest in terrorism (aside from terrorising their own population), and no interest in the rest of the world aside from supplying our heroin addicts. They don't want a global caliphate like Isis - they just want to be backward fundamentalists and run their stone age nation according to their version of Islam.

 

[1961_vintage]

I honestly don’t know the answer to this, as many occupying forces have found out.

Time to consider throwing-in with the Taliban?

 

[WestGorton]

The problem with it is we went in half cocked and underfunded with no real plan.......sat there not funding reconstruction and showing them why they needed to renounce the Taliban forever........ failed to properly train up and equip local forces and give them a core that could stand up to the Taliban..... then ran......abandoned them.

It was totally under resourced and yet again we backed flawed US foreign policy. It would happen again no matter who is in charge as we follow like lap dogs rather than looking in the other direction.

 

[Homar]

A disaster from the beginning. Hundreds of thousands dead, countless billions wasted, and a country in ruins. All for what? What can they say to the families of those that lost their family members? I live in hope that one day Blair will face justice.

 

[andyhinch]

Time to consider throwing-in with the Taliban?

That worked well with the mudjahideen :-(

 

[Phil Mitchell Foden]

The problem with it is we went in half cocked and underfunded with no real plan.......sat there not funding reconstruction and showing them why they needed to renounce the Taliban forever........ failed to properly train up and equip local forces and give them a core that could stand up to the Taliban..... then ran......abandoned them.

Underfunded? The US alone spent over 2 trillion dollars in Afghanistan. Who knows what the figure is accounting for the whole of the wider NATO coalition and charities like UNICEF.

NATO built and provided an Afghan airforce. NATO troops spent decades training, arming and equipping the Afghan National Army and police.

There's a lot of criticisms you can make but I don't think you can say the project was underfunded. It's been 20 years in the making. The collapse is absurd though, and has a lot to do with party politics in America juggling an unpopular war. Shameful the way the country was just handed back to the wolves though, but also likewise the way in which the Afghan security forces just handed it over.

As I mentioned in the other post though, you're asking them to believe in a nation state and Afghan national identity when the vast majority of Afghans find that an alien concept. Why it was ultimately always doomed to failure, not matter how much money was chucked at it.

 

[Tommy_Catons_Perm]

The problem with it is we went in half cocked and underfunded with no real plan.......sat there not funding reconstruction and showing them why they needed to renounce the Taliban forever........ failed to properly train up and equip local forces and give them a core that could stand up to the Taliban..... then ran......abandoned them.

An expert being interviewed on sky news this morning recounted the British military teaching 30 Afghan soldiers. Ten Afghanis weren't listening and ten others were asleep.